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Vegan - Natural?

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Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 12/30/2019 3:57:27 PM

Blessings brotha,

When I quoted that part of the passage you posted "according to his eating"; it was the "according to" which does seem to imply what a persons eats. However, I see now that it is not referring to what a person eats, rather it is referring to how much one can eat, it's dealing with portions.

So I give thanks for the correction bro. I had gotten confused by the previous passage where it says "take to them every man a lamb" then it says "a lamb for an house". I was thinking that every man was to eat a lamb (lol now that would be gluttony!), and then with passage 4, that if the house was to small then the neighbors would bring them lambs for those that would eat it. I had it quite wrong. Rather it is one lamb for each household and if the household is too small, then they would share it with their neighbor so that the whole lamb got ate, as none was to be wasted. I just read that most would only eat an olive size portion of lamb. The Israelites are against gluttony and the waisting of animal meat that was slaughtered to be eaten, not wasted.

You asked, "Where did you get the idea that Nazarites didn't eat animal flesh?"

This I got from Numbers 6:6 "All the days that he separateth himself unto the LORD he shall come at no dead body."

In I mind I think dead body means all dead bodies, man and animal, insects too. Now, after further study, it seems the Nazarite may have still eaten the "clean" meats. There are rules and regulations for what is considered clean and unclean when dealing with dead animal bodies, mainly how did it die...

And so I give thanks for taking some time to shine some light on this IPXninja. Things are not always as they seem to appear and what we think is true one day, we may find out the next day that it is false. Humbling lessons.

Each one teach one

Messenger: jessep86 Sent: 12/31/2019 1:08:23 AM

Isiah 7:15
"He will eat curds and honey when he knows to refuse the evil, and choose the good."

Matthew 3:4 Tells us John the baptist ate only honey from the bees and carob fruit from trees and was a forerunner of The Way of the Son of David

I agree there was not large population of vegans in this part of the world, the biblical world. The vegans that were were a small minority choose to be strict with it not so much as for animal right, though it existed as Jesus demonstrated in the temple. But the body, or temple is also better off not being in it, bough and sold and consumed in it. It became a place of death and lot of life, a gravegard of corpes in a holy sancuary.

If we want to speak biblically, flesh from animals was not food at all before the great flood. HUmans lived and evolved living in trees and eating fruit mostly, We came out of threes and out of the Savannah of Africa hunting animals.

Meat is really only a survival food and not our origional food, so if ya aim is to live like the origional man and wombman eat what was origionally provided

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 12/31/2019 9:09:51 AM


I'm happy to have been able to help shine some extra light on the matter. Trust me, I know very well how things can look one way and one can be sure that it is that way, but its not. That's why there are so many sects of Christianity and even multiple sects of Judaism.

You also raise a good point about portions. Because in the western diet, meat is the centerpiece. In the Asian diet it is more of side served in smaller portions for flavor. And so, although we know that there were, of course, gluttons, it was not supposed to be consumed in large portions like that. If there were any exceptions, it would be, as you said, to avoid wasting meat. I would also add that every man also includes women and children which is also why the portion size would vary. I'm sure you already knew this but some misogynists out there tend to try and disqualify women from being included when in reality the word 'adam' applied to all humans.

And actually this was also true for other cultures like Egypt. It has been theorized that the reason why the firstborn died was because they ingested a larger portion of meat from animals that were tainted from a previous plague. The theory goes that the plagues were all connected to each other and couldn't be stopped. One day I'll probably start a thread about it.

You are also very much correct about the law as it applies to dead bodies. All corpses are considered unclean. Regular people can touch unclean things, but then the unclean thing makes them unclean for a set period of time. Of course the most famous example is women being unclean for their menstrual period and having to set themselves apart so as to not make anything else unclean by touching it. Of course their level of medical knowledge left a lot to be desired so they had to avoid microorganisms and bacteria with an almost superstitious level of fear. Dead animals and such have caused many plagues in human history because when the body dies the living organisms in the body do not die with it. Instead, they take over the body, feed on it, which is what helps it to decay and return to the "dust". This is why we cook food. This is why "raw water" is a very bad idea and can kill you. Even ancient people had enough sense to know that there was some kind of invisible threat associated with death and decay and that it could be passed by blood. This is why kosher meat isn't the same as regular meat.

Just because I'm saying its okay to eat meat doesn't mean all meat is equal. The kosher process is a higher standard of making sure the meat is safe to eat. Do I personally think its necessary? Not in 2019. For a long time now, animals have been getting treated with antibiotics so that people don't get sick eating them. Companies don't want to get sued so they have a "market forces" motive to make their product safer.

Notice I said safer, not safe. Nothing is really safe; including plant products. Even if they say its vegan or its organic, a lot of these labels are marketing lies. And while it may be better to grow your own stuff, there are pros and cons to that as well. But... my point is that ancient people didn't have all these medical advances. So their meats were more prone to having issues that would make them "unclean".

And yes, "how it died"... that is of supreme importance. Even today, we don't eat sick animals.

Now... I did a whole study on this a long time ago, dealing with how "unclean" wasn't the end of the world. It basically just meant "unhealthy" as far as they understood health and things that would cause them to get sick. Men were literally afraid of women getting them sick and made them separate themselves. Well you wouldn't do that to your wife or girlfriend because you know more about health than they did. And we have soap and shampoos and wipes and all manner of antibacterial products and things they didn't have. So you have to consider the affect of technology.

What was told to them was told to them for their time and their environment. That's why in the garden they were given a different diet because the garden had enough nutrition among all the fruit trees and things that they didn't have to toil or hunt. The garden had everything their bodies need (is my belief of what is being conveyed and can also have referred to fruit that is now extinct or that only existed in the garden that could have produced later myths like Ambrosia). But after they were removed from the garden that ease of survival was taken away. And now they were faced with deserts and wild animals; possibly even climate changes. And then when you consider the flood it would have been impossible for them to survive without meat because plants needed time to grow back after being drowned and receiving no sunlight. So whatever vegetation the region might have had... was no more. So those clean animals were very necessary for their survival. And they had to eat on that boat too. (This is my view of hypothetical story as presented by the bible. I'm not saying I believe it.) And that's why they already knew what clean animals were before the time of the flood.

I'm not saying meat is the ideal food. I'm just saying it is what it is. And there wouldn't have been so many rules about meat if it wasn't seen as an important part of their diet, instead of saying "meat has these cons so we're just not going to eat it at all."

One of these rules was about 'Chelev'

Speak to the Children of Israel, saying: You shall not eat any fat of an ox, sheep, or goat. The fat of carrion and the fat of an animal with a fatal disease or injury, may be used for any work, but you shall not eat it.

We know that fat isn't good because it will turn into cholesterol and clog your arteries. If you have high cholesterol you should definitely stop eating meat. But also, if you fast periodically and eat correct portions for your size and you avoid the fat as much as you can, then you should be able to avoid this problem. I don't want to overstate this stuff. I just don't want people going crazy on meat because I said it was okay. No, it's okay in MODERATION.

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 12/31/2019 9:42:03 AM


Isiah 7:15
"He will eat curds and honey when he knows to refuse the evil, and choose the good."


13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

First of all, this prophecy was fulfilled in the same book by Isaiah's own son. It's taken as a messianic prophecy but I don't think it should be. Likeness and similarity is about as far as it goes.

Matthew 3:4 Tells us John the baptist ate only honey from the bees and carob fruit from trees and was a forerunner of The Way of the Son of David

John the baptist ate locusts and wild honey. Locusts are the only insect considered kosher. And locusts isn't a plant. It's meat. So if you're trying to argue that John the Baptist didn't eat meat and therefore other Essenes or Nazerenes didn't also, that would also be incorrect.

And if you're drawing a connection between honey in Matthew 3 and honey in Isaiah then you should also draw a connection between the locusts in Matthew 3 and animals in Isaiah 7:21 because I can tell you right now they had more uses than milk and butter. But according to the Benson commentary this was a common food of children in that country.

So considering that we're talking about a child, this makes perfect sense. So just because the bible says someone ate one thing, doesn't mean they didn't eat other things or that this was their diet throughout their whole lives. We have to take into account the culture of the people and what was normal in different stages of life. Obviously, you don't serve steak to a baby. We have baby food that is usually mashed up fruits and vegetables. Why? Because children don't have the teeth and aren't ready to digest everything. But by the same token you wouldn't give a baby an apple either without it being in the form of applesauce. Make sense?

I agree with you about human evolution but I would argue, because I truly believe, that part of evolution was changes in diet and BECAUSE we evolved into omnivores. People often get upset when people talk about monkeys and other primates but the reality is that they mostly do eat from the trees but they also eat meat. I believe the smaller the animal the smaller the meat; so in this case, we're mostly talking about insects. But hey... insects are not plants. That's meat too. It's simply meat for smaller animals. A human is normally too big to waste its time hunting for insects, even though people do eat insects. And this is just my observation but there are smaller humans on this planet who I believe eat less meat and there are taller, larger humans, who I believe, tend to eat more meat. If you look at giants, for example... some of our giants have been over 400 pounds. Of course there are non-giants over 400 and 500 lbs but clearly obesity isn't healthy. But if you were a giant... wouldn't you have eat proportionally to your frame? Just a thought.

I'm 6'2. Nuts and berries is probably not going to produce the energy requirements needed by my body, muscles, and total number of cells. So again, I can't accept the idea that every human on earth should have the exact same diet. Yes, there are vegan body builders and MMA fighters but how many of them were raised on a vegan diet using zero protein supplements? So as far as survival, needs of survival changes as the body adapts to different environments.

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 12/31/2019 9:46:36 AM

please keep in mind that whatever I say is not automatically right and should be taken with the disclaimer that "I could be wrong". You have to study and fact check and do your own research no matter who is talking; whether they are a licensed teacher, paid scholar, or just a regular brotha like myself who has simply done a lot of study. Biases can get the best of anyone.

Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 12/31/2019 10:36:52 AM

IXPninja said, "I'm 6'2. Nuts and berries is probably not going to produce the energy requirements needed by my body, muscles, and total number of cells. So again, I can't accept the idea that every human on earth should have the exact same diet. Yes, there are vegan body builders and MMA fighters but how many of them were raised on a vegan diet using zero protein supplements?"

I am also 6'2 and I eat plant based, though not just nuts and berries, more like Macka B "wha me eat" lol

I was very much an athlete in the past, training 3-4 hours a day and around 5-6 days a week (a strong). Getting there again. I've studied a lot about being a vegan athlete and I've lived it. I know other vegan athletes that have been vegan their whole lives. If you look into it, there are vegan football players, basketball players, tennis players, power lifters, runners/endurance athletes, race car drivers, swimmers, boxers, you name it and they are there and they are often times the champions of their sports! Big ups to the I them.

Do all of them take protein supplements? Well actually no. Some of them are against any supplements. However, like most meat eating athletes take protein supplements, most vegan athlete do take some protein supplements. This is very very common amongst all athletes. Again, there are vegan athletes that don't take protein supplements for the fact that you can easily get all your protein requirements from plants. Where does the bull or ox get their protein and nutrition? Or the elephant? Or the silverback gorilla?

The only thing that a vegan really needs to supplement is b12, which is what this thread is suppose to be about lol! And that need of b12 supplementation is debated like in the video I posted on the last page.

I know vegans that are much bigger than myself and they are full of energy, no supplements, just a belly full of organic plant goodness.

Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 12/31/2019 12:57:07 PM

jessep86 said, "Meat is really only a survival food and not our origional food, so if ya aim is to live like the origional man and wombman eat what was origionally provided"

Yes Iyah. I sight it the same. Original man and womban ate plants for their meat, like in the Garden of Eden story; the fruit of the the trees was their meat. The other animals also had the fruit of the trees as their meat.

IXPninja mentioned how the Garden of Eden may of had plants in it that no longer exist today. These Incient plants could of given the lions and other carnivores the nutrients they needed so as not to have to eat other animals. This is where I tied in earlier the quote from the Book of Isiah, where the lamb will kickit with the lion and all of that. That prophecy in Isiah is referring to a time when the ways of the past will be the ways of the future, "in the begining so shall it be in the end". So there will come a time when man and womban and all the animals will live in peace and their meat shall once again be the meat of plants and not the meat of animals.

Bless Up
Original Livity

Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 12/31/2019 2:30:34 PM

I said, "These Incient plants could of given the lions and other carnivores the nutrients they needed so as not to have to eat other animals."

I don't think "nutrients" is really the right word here, maybe "sustenance" is a better word. The fruit would have to be similar in its structure, it's tissues and such, as animal meat. Thinking in regards to the digestive system of carnivores.

Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 1/30/2020 1:29:58 PM

Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 1/30/2020 1:39:49 PM

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