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Vegan - Natural?

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Messenger: Ignorant/Wise Rasta Youth Sent: 12/26/2019 8:27:40 AM


I've been vegan for almost 2 years
My family says they think I've become thinner (In a bad way even though I eat what I can as a vegan)
I don't wanna kill or exploit to cook and meat is also not healthy, but there are various vitamins that directly say that you can't get as vegan like b12

So if a vegan need to take chemical pills to get the vitamin -how can one ever argue that veganism is natural.
I can see how to argue for vegetarianism. But not for veganism.

I love ital vegan style, but just don't know what Macka B and many others would answer

And I'm afraid to destroy my own temple
so I am considering switching from vegan to vegetarian and on the other hand, I will not support the industry

What would you say?

Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 12/26/2019 10:14:54 AM


Gotta eat enough calories to keep on the weight, or to add some weight to your body. So nyam up some yams and lentils, peas, potatoes, check out what the vegan athletes/body builders are eating.

Vitamin B12 is a vitamin that most people are deficient in, vegetarians and meat eater also. So even meat eaters have to take a supplement inorder to not be deficient in B12.

There are some studies showing b12 in spirulina and chlorella, however it seem the best source for b12 is from supplements. B12 comes from a bacteria so there is still research being done on vegan sources of B12. I'd say do some research and find a company that makes a more natural and clean b12 supplement, or find a local farmer to get eggs and dairy from...

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 12/26/2019 11:39:33 AM

My question to you is, natural for who?

I was raised vegetarian and I never understood why. My parents were both SDA Christians. They ate fish. And as a kid I was like "but... fish... is meat." I think my Dad, especially being a Jamaican who used to spear fish, wasn't about to give up fish. And he wanted to follow the bible but Jesus wasn't vegetarian either. Not a single Israelite, who followed the law, was. Not only did Jesus eat fish (and reportedly used a miracle to produce more fish as food), not only did he reportedly help his later fisherman disciple catch (presumably to sell and eat), but the law required them to eat the Passover lamb. So you really cannot follow OT bible or the NT example of Jesus and not eat meat.

I can understand the argument about taking life. However, I would argue back with the Lion King's circle of life song. I'm exaggerating but the reality is that the cycle of life is singular. And life itself is not something simply contained in one body. Many animals eat plants. So of course a plant based diet is natural (but for who?). And my doctor is vegan so he's always telling me I should watch some pro-vegan documentary. But I also remember the wise words of my Life Science college professor who talked about moderation. Essentially... balance. Animal populations are controlled by predators. Without that, many species would be over populated, and the balance of nature between plants and animals would be upset. Not to mention less oxygen and more CO2.

And yes, we do bad things to animals in the process of killing them. Not all farms, though. And yes, some farms inject animals with stuff it'd be better not to consume. But the same can be said about a lot of plants and pesticides.

Aside from rare breeds like the Venus fly trap, most plants don't eat animals. But all plants benefit from nutrients in the soil, often provided by decaying animals. To me its all just energy in different forms. And just as we have toxins and parasites and microorganisms in us, so do other animals, and so do plants. The real problem with the western diet is the emphasis on meat. Every meal centers around meat and typically larger portions. The human body has systems to handle toxins and things in our food that might be harmful but these systems can be overloaded. That's the problem. If you go beyond your body's ability to compensate it will negatively affect your overall health.

We act like there was food put here intentionally for us to eat. That's not true. Every plant and animal is its own species seeking survival. Some plants are poisonous just like some animals are.

Ingestion of the unripened Ackee fruit (Blighia sapida) may result in the metabolic syndrome known as "Jamaican vomiting sickness." Clinical manifestations may include profuse vomiting, altered mental status, and hypoglycemia. Severe cases have been reported to cause seizures, hypothermia, coma, and death. Medical treatment is primarily supportive care with intravenous fluids and dextrose.

I love ackee, but I'm not about to go around eating raw ackee. The act of cooking itself is "unnatural". Animals don't "cook" their food. And by doing so we affect the quality and kill much of the benefits but... it also helps to protect us from harmful bacteria, and other things. Again... balance.


Our teeth suggest that we evolved to eat both plants and animals. But our teeth also don't need to be as sharp as a sharks because we tenderize and cook our meat. I believe our teeth simply reflect a balanced diet.

It may be possible to get a balanced diet from plants alone. However... is even THAT... natural? Think of yourself as an animal with a limited feeding ground. Let's say you're a herbivore

understanding your limited range, how much biodiversity in plant life do you expect to encounter that would replicate all the benefits of a balanced diet? We get fruit and veggies from hundreds of miles away. That's not natural either! So either you do the unnatural thing of getting fruits and veggies from hundreds or thousands of miles away or you do the unnatural thing of cooking them or... you get it from different sources. At the end of the day we humans have adapted to our environment by also adapting tools; tools inside our bodies and tools outside our body. If you're not getting the nutrition you need, make a change. If you are too skinny and you want to get bigger, make a change. Just because you eat meat doesn't mean you have to abuse it or that you have to eat every single type of animal. Be selective. Stick to fish and chicken or just fish. Find YOUR own balance. You're not a cookie. You don't need a cookie cutter solution. My parents made that mistake and I probably ended up with too much soy based isoflavones which functions similar to human estrogen. You we run from one perceived threat into the warm embrace of another.

According to Harvard, soy can be broken down and used by the body differently in different ethnic groups, so how can we say what's best for everyone when humans in different areas have adapted differently to their environments?

Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 12/26/2019 2:53:07 PM

A humans anatomy and physiology, most resembles that of a primates. Like primates, humans teeth and digestive system are designed for munching up and getting all the goodness out of those veggies, fruits, nuts, seeds, mushrooms and all of that plant power.

Humans thrived off plants long time, before they ever ate animals. Only in times of scarcity and famine, did humans have to eat meat; for survival. Like when one finds themselves wondering in the desert for 40 years lol.

There were Israelites that did not eat meat, always have been; the Nazarites did not eat meat nor the Essenes. The Bible speaks about vegetarians and not eating meat. And of course the Bible says from the begining, that the fruit of the trees is to be our meat. RastafarI people are from the begining.

Original and Natural
Fruit shall be I meat
Ital Livity

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 12/26/2019 4:19:29 PM

Exodus 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying,

2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.

10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover.

I'm not trying to argue. I'm just supporting what I said earlier about those who followed the law.

"According to Epiphanius they rejected temple sacrifice and the Law of Moses, but adhered to other Jewish practices. "

As far as Essenes... sorry but there's no evidence to support that they were vegetarians

"No mainstream theologian buys the vegetarians’ argument because the Gospels are fairly straightforward about the Messiah’s tastes in food. “Jesus said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish. … And he took it, and did eat before them” (Luke 24:41-43). The story of Jesus multiplying the loaves and fishes, not to mention that Passover lamb, argues against vegetarianism, too."

The first person known to offer an animal sacrifice was Abel. And Cain's offering was not accepted. We can argue the reasons for this but throughout history the priests ate the meat of the sacrificed animal. I wont get into the nature of the Eden story and how much of it is allegorical. My point will always be that, as humans evolve their society and understanding, their writings will always conform. So by the time that we Noah and his story, clearly there is a dietary reason behind the numbers of each animal herded into the ark.

Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Note: this is the first instance of the term "clean" so that means Noah already knew what this meant and which animals were clean and which weren't prior to Genesis 7. This matches up to the dietary laws in Leviticus. I would further venture to say that clean vs unclean had a lot to do with bacteria and trying to avoid sickness caused by infection. Having this level of knowledge, without being explicitly told, could only come by means of experience. So I would argue that humans were eating meat from the "beginning" as well; both in an evolutionary sense and in the biblical sense.

The Israelites weren't primarily farmers. They were primarily herdsmen. Cattle... MEAT. I find no logical reason to have so much cattle if you are vegetarian. And the dietary laws were the perfect opportunity for YHWH to order the Israelites to be vegetarians. He clearly did not. It seems more logical that in the original garden man didn't have to "Work" for food. That means no hunting, but it also means no farming. It's only natural humans would idealize this state as a type of heaven. But I think the fact that Adam had to work for his food also opened the door to hunting and herding. Adam's children represent both disciplines. Cain brought the plants. Abel brought the meat. One became hunters, the other gatherers.

Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 12/26/2019 5:14:02 PM

"4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb."

According to his eating. Some of the Israelites don't eat animal flesh.

Genesis 1:29 "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."

Isaiah 11:6-9 "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."

Daniel 1:12-16 "“Test your servants for ten days; let us be given vegetables to eat and water to drink. Then let our appearance and the appearance of the youths who eat the king's food be observed by you, and deal with your servants according to what you see.” So he listened to them in this matter, and tested them for ten days. At the end of ten days it was seen that they were better in appearance and fatter in flesh than all the youths who ate the king's food. So the steward took away their food and the wine they were to drink, and gave them vegetables."

Proverbs 23:19-20 "Hear, my son, and be wise, and direct your heart in the way. Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat"

The Nazarites did not eat animal flesh. Many ones say that the Essenes were vegetarian also.

In the begining humans were not eating animals. Later on up to this day, many humans are eating animals; but there has always been those humans that never eat or ate any animals; Israelites included on that. There were some Israelites that never ate animal, like the Nazarite.

Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 12/26/2019 5:51:07 PM

Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 12/26/2019 6:53:32 PM

B12 comes from bacteria and is found in the soil and water. The environment which most people live does not allow for this bacteria to thrive as it once did. From all the chemicals and fertilizers used on the soil and the city treated water running through our faucets; not like the meadows and forest floors and the fresh spring and river waters.

Again even meat eaters tend to be deficient in b12 and should be taking a supplement accordingly.

However there are ones, like some of the ones in the video, that do not take a supplement for B12 and they are and remain healthy with no supplements and no animal products.

Rasta people know it's best to be livin up in hills, far from the city

Natural livity

Messenger: hattifnatt Sent: 12/30/2019 8:24:56 AM

I guess, being vegan is not about only food. I also try to wear clothes made of natural materials, I usually buy it here (in case anyone's interested).

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 12/30/2019 1:23:29 PM

Brotha, I highly respect you but I have to correct you. Nothing personal.

"4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb."

I'm sorry but that is a HUGE stretch to imply eating as in "diet". We have to go by the original Hebrew definition of the word. The Hebrew word for "eating" is 'okel'. In this context you cannot ignore the rest of the sentence which is "your count for the lamb". So this is obviously "meat" in relation to portion size, not "whether you want to or not". The choices are not Cain and Abel. It's Abel all the way. There was no vegetarian version of Passover with fruit juices squirted on the door posts. This is all allegorical reference to the sacrificial death of innocents to pay for the guilt of humans. You simply cannot get that from plants. Therefore, I see no reason to try and read vegetarianism or veganism into this text.

Usage of 'okel' in the KJV:
meat 18, food 16, eating 4, victuals 3, prey 2, mealtime 06256 1

food supply
meal, dinner

As you can see "meat" was used interchangeably as "food". That's why when it said "to you it shall be for meat" it wasn't saying it was a replacement for literal meat, but rather it would be your "food". So you have to understand Hebrew as opposed to what you think God wanted, because it had to be communicated in a language that was primarily used by humans who ate both plants and animals. And like I said, these weren't primarily farmers. Nor where they able to ship many different kinds of plants and fruits and all that from different regions. So this is why most people grew grains and stuff to make bread. And the bread went with the meat and lentils and whatever else they could grow. A perfect example is Jacob and Esau. If there were any people who wanted to be vegan they would have been in such a small tiny fraction of a minority that they would not have been addressed by laws designed for the nation. And let's be real, I highly doubt any existed at all unless they had an allergy because its not like there was any health information in circulation that was against meat. Anything that came from God they assumed was righteous and good. And therefore if God had ordained the eating of meat but had specified and differentiated clean vs unclean, then they took that as healthy vs not healthy.

Let's talk about Nazarites.

Where did you get the idea that Nazarites didn't eat animal flesh?

Judges 13
7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

Again, clean meats vs unclean meats were defined by the law. For this command to be issued against unclean meat and not ALL meat shows you that they were indeed allowed to eat meat. Also, one should understand that there were different types of Nazarites, including temporary vows. People could make their own vows and this was done all the time. That's why the guy killed his daughter because he vowed to sacrifice the first thing to greet him. But you're not going to have a commanded vow that contradicts the law. And even if someone chose to fast for a period of time they probably didn't choose a time that would conflict with the feast days. A fast is not the same thing as a dietary change. The fact that fasting is also part of the law shows that this is a desirable thing to do. But it also doesn't contradict the dietary laws.

If you click on the word "kid" you'll see the Hebrew word is 'g@diy' which is a young male goat. In other words, he brought his wife food for her to cook for them.

Isaiah 11:6-9 has nothing to do with diet. The rhetoric used here is bombastic. He will smite the earth with the rod of his mouth and his breath will slay the wicked. We both know this is rhetorical and not to be taken literally. What then follows is the same sort of over the top depiction of peace. The animals were basically an allegory of human tribes and nations and how they would live together in peace and not fight each other or hunt each other as prey. It's not literally saying that the animals would change and stop eating each other. While some animals can have a plant-based diet it is not possible for all animals to live on plants. Their whole digestive system cannot support this brand of human idealism. So while you can force a cat to eat vegan pet food you're not doing it a favor and animals in the wild could never get what they needed this way.

In fact, I have a cat and she started losing hair as a result of the wheat in most brands of cat food.

Many people say a lot of things. You can always find, especially online, a group that is a proponent of something, who also thinks it is the ideal that everyone should be doing. That's why, in many cases, they're doing it themselves. But people tend to see what they want to see and based their understanding of the world around them on what they want to be true. I personally wish that animals didn't have to kill each other. However, thinking about the balance of real life on this planet, rates of reproduction, etc. It is necessary and the idea that killing is wrong is a very easy idea to have when you're born on top of the food chain and can buy your fill of any diet known to man. So it's very much based on conditions.

If you lived in the desert, what farming are you doing? Are you eating grass? Can you get your nutrition from grass or even lettuce? Do fruit trees grow in every climate? How do you get all your vitamins without fruit? Many American pioneers died, unable to figure out what to eat in the Americas. The Thanksgiving holiday is a celebration of that collaboration with the natives that helped them to survive (so they could later take their land). So it's not as easy as you think it is. And so when the Israelites were around water, they fished. When they had land they could harvest, which didn't happen for years after the exodus, then they could finally grow diverse crops. But the main stay were the animals that could travel with them and reproduce more animals.

I don't know what else to tell you except this was an animal-based culture, not a plant based culture. And even their religion evolved, in part, out of that animal consumption foundation. This is why God appreciates the aroma of dead animal meat until he has enough of them overdoing it and not learning the lesson sacrifice was meant to teach them. This is why their greatest king was a shepherd and the disciples were fishers of men. This is why the patriarchs were wealthy based on the size of their flocks. Their wealth and culture centered around meat. Meat. This is how they could worship a golden calf. And it wasn't just them. They're just one example. Many ancient peoples formed their religious ideas around their survival. Different gods helped them to survive by helping their plants grow but this god wouldn't be worshiped in the desert. Jacob was knowledgeable enough to know exactly how to breed Laban's flocks to his own advantage. They knew animals like this because they ate them to survive.

If you want to investigate more you can further consider the interpretation of pharaoh's dream regarding the coming famine and how this also affected diet and what animals ate vs how much land was dedicated to farming and who owned the land and the farms vs cities. Consider all these things, both in Egypt and in rural communities. And consider the versatility of animals, how much meat can be produced from them vs plants, etc. Really think about how much land you would need to equal a single cow or goat and how these animals convert plants we don't eat into meat that the law considers "clean". It's a good topic with a lot to think about. But just because some vegans want to think there was some large vegan population in the bible in order to justify their own ideas... doesn't necessarily make it true.

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