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Yeshua(Jesus) Vs Moshe(Moses)

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Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 6/30/2020 10:25:34 AM

Blessings IPXninja,

It is good to reason with you, I give thanks and apprecilove your insight on things.

I will do my best to go through and address your questions and some of yoir statements. If there is a question that I don't answer that you'd like me to; please ask it again.

Soon come

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 6/30/2020 3:29:43 PM

Me: Can you explain to me who it was legal to charge usury to a foreigner but not to your fellow Israelite?

Let me expound on this a tad bit further.

Yeshua was asked the question. "Who is my neighbor?"

Well if you are a follower of Yeshua who has studied his words and messages and you also know a bit about Hebrew culture, you should realize why this message was important enough to make it into the gospels; why these people NEEDED Yeshua.

They were in mental bondage to the law. And it influenced their moral development. People did each other dirty but in ways that were legal in the eyes of Moses.

"Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."

This came from Deuteronomy 6 but it was Yeshua who added "and thy neighbor as thyself".

Why did he need to say this? Because it wasn't equally established in their culture. They had "some" understanding of not doing harm to their fellow Israelite but they didn't have to go out of their way for them either. This is why Yeshua told the story of the "Good Samaritan". And it was a play on words because the Israelites would dog the Samaritans as trash; as bad people. This arrogant idea was often produced by them thinking they were the "chosen ones" and everyone else were heathen savages. Christians used this very same mentality against indigenous populations and used the same mentality when they took Africans as slaves.

"Who is my neighbor?"

This concept was not Mosaic. It was Yeshua who taught this. If you understand that your neighbor is anyone who is around you then how can you justify the idea of conquering another nation? Isn't that nation your neighbor? How could you take foreign women as slaves according to different rules? If that foreigner is also your NEIGHBOR?

So if we understand this we can see how big of a reformer Yeshua actually was and why he was so necessary to breaking the Mosaic dynasty. The Mosaic dynasty was religious...

but it wasn't spiritual.

Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 7/1/2020 1:25:22 AM

IXPninja, I will get back to some other statements and questions you've made in previous posts when I get more time to sit and type.

Something you recently said, ""Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."

This came from Deuteronomy 6 but it was Yeshua who added "and thy neighbor as thyself"."

No ninja, JAH told Moses, to tell the people, in Leviticus 19:18 "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord."
It is the last of the Ten Commandments; though it is really what the last 6 commandments are about: loving your neighbor as yourself.

It can also be said that Yeshua's two greatest commandments is a summed up version of the Ten Commandments.

The first 4 deal with peoples relationship with JAH. The other 6 commandments deal with peoples relationship with one another.

I will give more reasoning soon, like I've said. Working a few jobs in these times to try and make moves in life.

Messenger: Cedric Sent: 7/1/2020 4:05:07 AM

Bless Up Idren

Give Thanks for this reasoning.

I man also want to address other topics that were brought up, but I too seem pressed for time these days.

I think IPXninja's argument is saying that the law's definition of the word "neighbor" was redefined by Yeshua/Jesus, where that specific word meant something different from Moshe/Moses time all the way up until it was redefined by Yeshua.

In Moses time, the word neighbor would specifically and only refer to another Hebrew person. Anyone of a different faith or race by law would not have been defined as a "neighbor".

It is a good point and helps I man overstand the reasoning more. Even though Moses wrote the same law that Yeshua redefined, they weren't enforced the same way or used the same definitions, so it can be damaging to sight it as such.

Jahcub I, I man sight the I bringing up the verse Leviticus 19:34, about loving the stranger in your land as a native, but again, the law would have only applied this to people living within the borders of Israel, which makes it limited.


Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 7/1/2020 6:31:57 AM


I see what IXPninja was saying about neighbor. However he also said,"it was Yeshua who added "and thy neighbor as thyself"". When Yeshua was actually quoting Moses.

I disagree about the word having different meaning. There were other neighboring nations, that were not Israelites, with whom the Israelites showed tolerance and were peaceful with.

Yeshua, like Moshe, was for His people, the Israelites. He said that His teachings were for His people and he also refered to the foreign woman as a dog, when she asked for His help.

He did help the woman, after He sighted that she had some wisemind.

Mark 7:26-29
"The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.
And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter."

The scripture shows that Yeshua came to teach and do works for His people. And there are other scriptures that show the same.

The spirit of Moshe's and Yeshua's teachings are the same. Moshe was teaching to a hard hearted people and so His teachings reflect that. Same with Yeshua when He is dealing with the hard-heartedness of people.
Matthew 19:7-8
"They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so"

Ok, I need to take sometime my next post on this topic. Address those things I said I would.

Messenger: Black Christ in Flesh Sent: 7/1/2020 8:46:45 AM

This is a confusion post. Yall remember the chinese philosopher, Confusious. Well, Moses was the black christ in flesh.

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 7/1/2020 7:50:21 PM

Jahcub: No ninja, JAH told Moses, to tell the people, in Leviticus 19:18 "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord."

You are correct and I apologize for the confusion but was it in Deuteronomy 6? No. Yeshua added it. And after he added it he had to redefine what "thy neighbor" actually meant. I don't want to get into the weeds on this but in an agricultural society neighbors aren't that close. It wasn't like living in cities. Cities were created for the Levites so it was mostly them and their families living there. At some point cities likely became more of a New York type of place but there was enough separation between tribes to enable tribalism between them. So even in the context of Israel, the question of "who is my neighbor" was often lost on them.

There were other rabbis who came before Yeshua who also taught the law in this way. So when I say Yeshua I'm saying he's the one who should be credited for the actual acceptance or at least popularizing of the reform.

The importance of Deuteronomy 6 and why I cite that as opposed to Leviticus is because Deuteronomy 6 is known as the "Shema".

The Shema is of great importance to the Israelites as a nation because it reinforced their monotheistic belief and way of life as a daily ritual part of their religion. "Here, O Yisrael, Jah (pronounced Yah) is our elohim (plural intensive), Jah is One". And thou shalt love Jah thy elohim with all thy..." you know the rest. They key is threefold.

1. Many if not most Israelites weren't able to read and write.
2. The law was read to them once per year

When you understand these points then you can understand why the Shema was important because they had to MEMORIZE it and repeat it 3 times a day.

This is my main argument against Trinitarians. There is no way a culture is going to inject confusion into something they were told to repeat 3 times a day for almost the sole purpose of not being confused.

But in this statement of faith, it was not included for them to love each other. Yeshua added that. Or "re-added" if you like. But it wasn't in the Shema. And the children of Yisrael were not able to be be legal scholars like that. Education was mostly up to the rabbis who traveled around teaching and might take on several students like apprentices which is the same rabbinic tradition Yeshua's disciples were a part of.

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 7/2/2020 12:19:57 AM

Cedric: In Moses time, the word neighbor would specifically and only refer to another Hebrew person. Anyone of a different faith or race by law would not have been defined as a "neighbor".

It is a good point and helps I man overstand the reasoning more. Even though Moses wrote the same law that Yeshua redefined, they weren't enforced the same way or used the same definitions, so it can be damaging to sight it as such.

100% correct!

Moshe was a ruler. Yeshua was a rabbi. Big difference.

When Moshe had to sit as a judge (like many local magistrates still do today in their jurisdictions) their concern is solving local problems/disputes. It's a different mentality. It's like when Solomon ruled between the two women claiming to be the mother of a baby. He had to make a judgment. It wasn't about trying to get them to care about each other.

Eventually Moshe had to appoint judges and those judges needed laws and precedents to act as a foundation so that their decisions were based on the same equal application of law. It's harder to judge people's expression of love. There's a lot more room for grey there.

And if we look at laws in practically any country you can think of, it'll be the same thing. The law helps to solve disputes and mete justice against someone who has caused damage. It's not the same as a moral guideline. The Pharisees and Sadducees were trying to use their adherence to the legal framework of Moshe and the tradition of their Jewish elders as though it was righteousness and so Yeshua had to check them several times. Because yes, even though they couldn't be stoned for anything they did, they still weren't righteous because their intentions weren't about LOVE. And I'm sure you've read and know enough of these interactions for you to understand without me citing any one case in particular. It was common for them to butt heads on the bases of their legalism being in opposition to spirituality. And that's what I'm saying. Moses taught the law as a ruler. Those 613 laws are divided into "laws", "decrees", and "testimonies". Most governments have the same thing separate from spirituality. I can easily be a good neighbor to my actual neighbors without loving them. That's what the law says. But spirituality tells me that I should actually be a good neighbor because I love them. The law didn't give that to the people. That's why they needed reformation and the ruach hakodesh.

Not just the letter... but the spirit.

Messenger: Jahcub I Sent: 7/3/2020 2:14:39 AM

IXPninja said, "What was the difference between Moshe and the Philistines or the Amorites if they all behaved in similar ways?"

Child sacrifice was a major difference between them. Both the Philistines and Amorites sacrificed children to their gods. That and other evil works was a major difference between them.

Deuteronomy 12:31
"You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods."

IXPninja said,"Moshe allowed slavery. This is one of the dark realities of the bible."

True. Though there were laws against the mistreatment of slaves, even punishable by death. It can and has been argued that they had more rights and received better treatment from the Israelites than how other surrounding nations treated their slaves.

The slaves were spoils of war; they were not innocent bystanders who got kidnapped and sold off. It was against Mosaic Law to kidnap people.

Exodus 21:16
“Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession."

IXP "Moshe was a conqueror. He stole land from the Canaanites by force, where Abraham had previously lived with them in peace. Moshe actually committed genocide against his own people in order to establish his own authority."

What JAH told Abraham about His people taking the land of Canaan:
Genesis 15:13-16
"Then the Lord said to Abram, “You can be sure that your descendants will be strangers in a foreign land, where they will be oppressed as slaves for 400 years. But I will punish the nation that enslaves them, and in the end they will come away with great wealth. (As for you, you will die in peace and be buried at a ripe old age.After four generations your descendants will return here to this land, for the sins of the Amorites do not yet warrant their destruction.”"

IXP "And instead of wealth going to a king he simply made it so that wealth went to his family and mandated that they didn't have to work and the Israelites would serve them by bringing them food."

You can read in the Torah about all the care and work that went into the setting up of the tabernacle and all the other priestly duties required of them. You will see that the Levites stayed busy with works.

IXP "I can tell you that pagans are very nice people. It is sad that they are imagined to be devil worshipers by Christians."

You can tell me all kinds of things; doesn't make it true. Too many kinds of pagans to say they are very nice. Pagan is to broad of term. Seeing how pagan refers to all non-Abrahamic faiths.

So not all pagans are devil worshipers, true. However all devil worshipers are pagan, by definition.

I live in a town full of pagans, all kinds, some be worshiping devils. Why? Because they think they can attain some mystic powers, cast spells, get what they want.

Some pagans nice
Some pagans full of hate

Messenger: Cedric Sent: 7/3/2020 8:50:13 AM

Bless Up Idren

Jahcub I, I man bless up and give thanks for the I’s reasoning about karma and the role it works as a balance for creation. I man sight it very similar.

I man haven’t really been able to reason a better word than control for JAH’s role in the Iniverse, and I man usually just avoid using the word and instead reason about how I consider “JAH plan” to be more of a spirit that works at molecular and the Highest levels to work towards balance in Nature throughout the Iniverse. At the same time I reason about InI responsibilities in creation in human form. At the same time I reason about Itinuation of Iternity, and reincarnation. Maybe in another language there is a higher meaning to a word similar to control. I sight all the commonalities through InI reasonings.

IPXninja, I man can sight the I’s position that there is never a valid excuse for any form of genocide.

I man also sight the I is boss with relating the history of the bible and InI Iniverse to Star Wars. I followed along great with most comparisons. Haha.

Jahcub I and IPXninja, I man had and still have a very limited view of the complete history of the biblical world, as far as geo-political affiliations and even how the bible related to the surrounding history of the land it took place in. So I man injoying learning more context of the biblical world. I man give thanks again for the I’s educating I.

Maybe in time I man will reason I view point more on I man’s sight of InI responsibility on creation and the guidance of JAH and how karma and all InI's reasoning relates, but for now I man just learn and Iditate.

Blessed Love Idren

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