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Yeshua(Jesus) Vs Moshe(Moses)

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Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 9/13/2019 8:44:37 AM

The purpose of this thread is to discuss 2 things:

1. Reasons why I think Moshe is worst than Adolf Hitler
2. Reasons why I think Yeshua was against Moshe
3. Reasons why I think they both had 2 different gods/versions

Bonus: Why "black identity" religions tend to favor Moshe and the OT

notes: I'm using the phrasing "I think" to preface everything as my opinion right off the bat. I think this is important as this will be somewhat controversial. My normal screen name is Zealot X which for some reason I couldn't use on this site, but the zeal means that I'm probably going to go in on Moshe pretty hard so if you're sensitive to that I apologize in advance. I'm not trying to offend anyone.

a little history: I was raised SDA. I left disenfranchised with the Trinity doctrine. I went into Messianic Judaism. Then Hebrew Israelite (but not the crazy power ranger version). Then agnostic leaning more towards athiest. Now Jedi/Rasta/Athiest (if that's even possible lol). I'm sharing this just to help you see where I'm coming from.

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 9/13/2019 9:40:28 AM

I was in Canada in June and we were having a group discussion that sabbath afternoon and I was definitely high on my soap box but to my surprise, everyone was feelin me. We were vibing, old and young, mostly guys but a few women too; all love, all positive. Mostly, but not all fam, because I was there for my uncle's 70th birthday. I rarely ever just unleash my full knowledge on members of my family because I try to avoid the drama as not everyone can handle even the idea of being wrong. This time, it just felt right and I went with the flow. By the end there was even an elder gentlemen who requested my number, saying he had learned more in this one day than he had in many many years. Felt good.

One of the questions I put to this group of Adventists was "If God told you to kill someone, would you do it?"

You see... from my perspective, and watching a flow of truth seekers walk a similar sad journey from believer to non-believer, it seems like the more you study and learn the more you tend to reject previously held beliefs. And it is sad because... its a very lonely journey. You usually lose people, relationships, church families, often not included in the same dinners and things you were involved with growing up. And people might think there's something wrong with you.

But its a journey of self-discovery; not just the individual self, but the collective self of humanity. You have to see both the light and the dark, the truth and the contradictions. Humans lie. A lot. And we also make assumptions. One of the assumptions I can admit to growing up was the simple assumption that everyone who wrote the bible was inspired by God and therefore were honest actors, telling the truth about their experience with God.

However, there are many examples in recent years where people, like Joseph Smith who was the founder of the Mormon church and successful con artist, have lied even about the most sacred things, because of their own corruption and willingness to manipulate other people to get what they wanted. Whether its catholic priests as sexual predators or pilgrims burning "witches" at the stake because what? Did they actually think they were worshipping Satan? Or did they simply not like them? We have a history of human beings doing the absolute worst things to our(collective)selves in the name of God and so the first question to ask is...

If God told you to kill someone would you do it?

So the room gave different responses, as I expected. I'd expect the same here. And of course I wasn't trying to convict anyone so its not that any answer is necessarily wrong; just something to pause and think on. One of my new family members by marriage, a very good brotha from Africa, said yes without hesitation. Yes.

And it's a remarkable thing because how the hell do you know that the voice you're hearing is God's voice? We don't even need to bring the devil into this even though it would be up his alley to practice this very type of deception (if he exists of course). But no, how do you distinguish your own voice? Because I said "if God told you" people automatically then assumed this fact to be true. God would have to exist for me to ask this question because the question presumes, not only that God exists, but that God is talking to you.

And that's how religion is. That's how the bible is. It presumes the existence of God so that everything written is automatically taken as though God actually spoke to these people and was behind all these events. What people don't naturally assume is that they're either lying or that their own belief caused them to assume that they too were dealing with God and not their on conscience (or lack thereof). They just kept passing on the assumption that gods and goddesses existed, until it got to a generation where science had dispelled the vast majority of their unscientific assumptions. The same people who assumed the earth was flat assumed God talked to Moshe. And now even in 2019 there are a growing population of people who believe the earth is flat. Why? Did they see that it was flat? Do they have any reason to believe it is flat than they do round? No. Someone TOLD them.

Now let's get to Moshe

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 9/13/2019 10:24:31 AM

I'm going to start a bit out of order, kind of like the way the Star Wars movies came out, because... the reason Moshe has credibility comes from the middle of the story. Think about it. It's all the miracles and such that give him authority and credibility. That same credibility is then used to tell his origin story and is also used to make laws and establish a religion that really did not exist before this.

You know the story already, but if not, take some time to read it again. But try to read it critically, imagining how you would feel if Moses was someone completely different the same way we compare Trump to Obama. If you're in Trump's camp you're far less likely to see Trump as a monster for the things he's doing. And if Trump asked you to vote for him you'd probably do it. So think of Moses in this same way. Except think of him as being from a different religion altogether; Scientology maybe. If a leader from the church of Scientology said "okay, I want you to kill everyone who doesn't believe in Scientology" would you? Of course not. That would be insane. And because a lot of us grew up in the bible we didn't study the implications of this order or even the weight of it. Moshe wasn't simply executing people. He was committing genocide against his own blood. Black on black crime to next level and then some. How is this dude not a monster?

Everyone judges God by the present. Christian decry Islam because the problem with Islam is that its much closer to the culture of the Old Testament. It's not just that New Testament changed things. Because you still had the Dark Ages; the Crusades, the Inquisitions, and the Salem witch trials. No, one of the biggest advances Christianity now has over Islam is that it is tempered and held in check by Atheism and other religions. Think about it. The separation of Church and State has created an environment more prone to progress than simply doing everything by the bible for the next 10,000 years. They bible is already written and can't make any more progress than what Yeshua tried to do. So how much do you want to get locked into one era of human thought and moral development? And how hard would it be for the next messiah to penetrate that fortress of stagnation turned system?

Moshe created a system. But it wasn't static. Things evolve. What we have to judge is the trajectory. One of the major impacts of Moshe and the Mosaic Law is that people were too afraid to openly challenge what he said. If he was any other world leader he would be classified as an authoritarian dictator. You know this is true. People weren't allowed to pick up sticks on the sabbath. Didn't matter what they believed. Moshe said they had all signed a contract, simply by being there, by being Israelites, the whole people turned nation, had basically made a deal with the 'devil', selling their souls to God and the people who spoke for God. Amazing coincidence how this fact benefited the people currently speaking for God.

Because no one was able to challenge Moses no one else could say that God spoke to them and told them something different. And that would have been a lie anyway so if they were going to lie then there would be no difference between Moshe's lies and theirs except that Moshe had established credibility by getting them out of Israel and making the individual dependent on the decisions that affected the collective.

Moshe made them wander around in the desert (he probably just got lost) because he didn't like their attitude. He basically killed off an entire generation because of their complaints, making the next generation that much more docile and malleable. He was teaching them, with each death and execution, that free thinking wouldn't be tolerated. It didn't matter if they understood, overstood, lowerstood, upperstood, whatever... just obey. Just do what I say-err I mean what God told me to tell you.

Think about it. Couldn't Moshe have simply let the complainers go wherever they wanted? They could have gone back to Egypt or went to Canaan in smaller groups. Moshe didn't actually bring them out of Egypt to set them free. He did it to enslave them to his own rule. After all, he learned how to rule from his education in Pharaoh's own house. But he would have been smart enough to know that he would have never ruled in Egypt so long as Pharaoh had a blood heir. So his ambition had no where to go. And maybe he was jealous of his Egyptian brother. We don't know. All the stories assume Moses to be this hero; the Prince of Egypt. And he's all nice and honest and reluctant to be in power. What if this wasn't the real Moshe at all?

Remember it was Andrew Jackson who was in command over the Trail of Tears. And this is Trump's favorite past president. But we all know American history isn't taught in shades of grey or to show people for who they were. It's designed to make heroes out of men who committed crimes against humanity for the sake of white supremacy. As long as bible believers can see Moses through the eyes of the bible, acting on behalf of the Israelites for the sake of the same religion that produced their salvation, can they ever truly judge Moshe for what he was? Worse than Hitler.

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 9/13/2019 11:08:03 AM

Moshe couldn't let the complainers go. He couldn't let them be free to worship whatever god they choose because he knew his authority came from their belief in the god he claimed to represent. Moshe knew his ambition to be their ruler rested on them not being allowed to make that choice. And being afraid to try. So for the same reason that Roman hung up some of its criminals on crosses and displayed their rotting corpses to strike fear in others, Moshe did the same with his own people. He killed them in order to prevent others from using their own free will to decide what was in their best interest wasn't him or who he claimed to be their God.

Aaron, on the other hand... he wasn't loyal to this version of God either. If you pay close attention, although Moses picked Aaron to be his mouthpiece, the story doesn't really show Aaron talking to Pharaoh; only to the Hebrews. In other words, Moshe used Aaron because his people didn't know him and he didn't have any credibility with them. The author makes it sound like Aaron, at least once, heard God talking to Moshe. However, if that was truly the case, then how does one explain his lapse of judgment when he fashioned the golden calf and said to the people "these be your gods who brought you out of Egypt"? Aaron shifted with the tide that was now tilting back towards Egypt and Egyptian theology. Not only was the dictator gone but it seemed like Joshua led a group of armed fighters that was loyal to Moshe pretty much from the start. And although they didn't ascend to the top they were still a distance away from the people.

The people weren't just complaining. They were challenging the authority of Moses by going back to other gods and what was, in reality, the democratic freedom to choose. Aaron went along with this, not fearing that this God his brother was talking about would strike him down. Even after all these 'miracles' Aaron was more afraid of the crowd of people than he was this God he supposedly heard talking. Such a well spoken man like Aaron, a man chosen for this job, you mean to tell me he couldn't have convinced them based on his own experience? Not even a Christian pastor who has never heard God speak a day in his life would do this. And he could have just said "you go do you if that's what you want to do". But no, he had to be the one to make the calf so that he could still be the one in charge; even with a different god.

But his brother came back.

And if you read what Aaron says you will see that he clearly lied; saying that the calf came out of the fire as if by magic and like he had little or nothing to do with it. So we can clearly see that he was willing to lie about miracles and yet him and his brother doing miracles, mostly the same miracles the priests of Egypt (who had trained Moses) were able to do, we are supposed to believe are 100% credible. He didn't lie about those; only these other ones.

but... he's a liar. Moshe makes a liar the high priest of Israel. But why would he do this unless he was fine with it as long as it benefited him? And maybe... just maybe... he didn't mind because they were both performing the same con. Amazingly enough, it was through the priesthood that they became wealthy and created a system that would keep them on top.

Think about it. The Israelites were told to "BORROW" gold and whatever from the Egyptians as they left. Because remember, the original story to Pharaoh was a LIE. They said they just wanted to go to sacrifice to their God and they would come back. I'm pretty sure, pharaoh, not being an idiot, knew that was a lie and because he knew he was being lied to he wasn't deceived and I think this is what happened when his "heart was hardened". But since the writer tells the story from a perspective that paints the liars as the heroes it had to be that God was the one who hardened his heart enough though it was contrary to the whole plan of them leaving. After the Israelites looted the Egyptians all of a sudden they had to build a temple and the priests had to have gold and jewels. Suddenly, under Moshe's regime you had to have priests. Where did that idea come from? Abraham? Isaac? Jacob? Noah??

Or did he simply copy whatever he liked from Egypt? Which is ironic since he forbade the Israelites to follow Egyptian gods. What they created was basically a theocracy with an unelected leader who was "chosen by God". And unlike the kings that prophets later anointed, Moshe's own rule required no other human co-signer and no witnesses were even allowed to go up to peak of Sinai or into the "most holy place". So who could say if Moshe was talking to God or if he was talking to himself?

Yes, if you haven't realized it by now, what I'm suggesting is that Moshe made the whole thing up and manipulated the people with what he had learned from Egypt. And in order to keep his house of cards from falling down, and in order to keep from being discovered as a liar and a con artist, he had people killed and murdered his political rivals before they could develop any real credibility.

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 9/13/2019 1:18:42 PM

The grip of Moshe is so strong that the only real challenger credible enough to stand up to Moshe doesn't come on the scene until the New Testament.

The Hebrew Bible was already written. It was over. The Gospels are part of a new collection of writings, included in a Christian bible, not not the Hebrew bible.

Like the story of Moses, the story of Yeshua (Jesus) provides a detailed account of his birth and how God intervened to save his life from the law of the land that all boys under a certain age were to killed. Isn't that exactly what happened to Moshe? There is even an account where Yeshua goes to Egypt to hide out (perhaps learning while he's there?). So straight away we have a connection between these 2 men, setting up a showdown that many people don't even see.

And it wasn't just Yeshua. I believe Yeshua was in fact a follower of John the Baptist and that they were both part of the Essene tradition.

Being the minority sect, in comparison to the Pharisees and Sadducees, it easy to see how their beliefs clashed with Moshe and those who strictly adhered, not only to Moshe, but to the traditions of their elders. Moshe created a sacrificial system that resulted (evolved into) money changers at the temple and ATMs at Christian mega churches. Understand that this is the same thing. It's corruption and materialism dressed up as religion. Moses was all about that prestigious visual sight of wealth being a sign of power and he derived that power by speaking for God. Is this really any different from the likes of Jerry Falwell? It's exactly the same. Different flock. Same wolf.

John the Baptist clashed with the Pharisees before Yeshua did. They both called the Pharisees a brood of vipers. It wasn't simply about seeing them as fake or hypocrites. They saw a darkness that preyed on their fellow Israelites. There are snakes that eat other snakes but its not considered cannibalism because its not the same species. Snakes were considered cunning animals. Yeshua told his followers to be "wise" as serpents but "harmless" as doves. So when they were calling them snakes it wasn't their wisdom they were applauding. The system they were part of was like the Matrix and they were the agents. They didn't care about the people. They used them. They weren't trying to fight for freedom against Rome because they were content with being allowed to stay in theocratic power and still benefiting from the sacrificial system.

The Essenes were against sacrificing animals which people used to do in order to appease God in their desire to seek forgiveness. This system greatly benefited the Levitical priesthood that was part of the Mosaic legacy. What they didn't seem to realize was how much wealth was being transferred in the process. This was big business. Think about how the Catholic church used to handle "penance". The priests used to tell them how much money to give. In contrast, the Essenes would use baptism. Baptism was free.

Remember that the Levites weren't given land from the wars. Instead, they built cities for them. What do you generate from owning land? Wealth, right? But you had to work for it. The Levites did not. It was Mosaic Law that they received part of the 10% tithes(national tax) of the entire nation. And who's to say how much they actually distributed to the other legal recipients; the widows and fatherless children? On top of all this, people would bring their animals of varying worth, and bring it to the priests. This provided food for the priests.

Perhaps the reason why there were so many Essenes had more to do with politics than religion. What if they were simply the poor lower class who had to share land and work together to survive while the Pharisees and Sadducees were wealthy and able to benefit from everyone else's labor? Would that be reason enough to challenge Mosaic Law?

Yeshua was almost stoned on several occasions as he argued against the scribes and Pharisees. And people wanted to see what he would do when they offered up the woman caught in adultery. I believe a lot of people just went along with what they were told to do out of fear while others did it out of envy. If they weren't allowed to have sex with whoever they wanted without their neighbors snitching, if they had to be physically examined before marriage so that the man and his family could be sure she was a virgin, if they too afraid to get caught to live in the ways they wanted but weren't free to, then why should anyone else? Why should anyone else get away with it? And of course you have people picking up stones because they believed God told Moshe that this was what they had to do and that it was their duty to God to execute these punishments of the Mosaic Law. And their whole religion and connection to God was based on this presumption that the commands of Moshe were the Word of God.

But the challenge to this wasn't very subtle. Yeshua was the Word of God perfected in human form or "made flesh". He was a competitor to Moshe because he could be pitched and seen as a better version with a better message. The people needed a reason to believe him but I think they secretly wanted to the same way that their ancestors murmured and complained but were forced under heel by those loyal to Moshe.

Yeshua, which almost ironically, is the same name as Joshua who was loyal to Moshe; which is also funny because the name is first used in Exodus 17... Think about that. Joshua is a theophoric name using the shortened form of "YHWH", but this name was introduced by Moshe himself. His real name was Hoshea but Moshe essentially renamed him which gives you an understanding of how much influence he had over him.

And so Yeshua says one of the most brilliant lines in the whole bible which is "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". This was a direct challenge to the whole institution of Moshe and Mosaic Law. Yeshua told stories about love and forgiveness because these ideas were lacking value in the matrix they were in. And so he had to be Neo; had to be "the one" who could free them from the matrix they were born into; free them from Moshe.

Yeshua issued a number of scathing rebukes against the kind of people that were produced from that system. Think of the Good Samaritan or the Woman who called a dog. What he was saying was that their blood and who their father was didn't matter. Moshe started that whole thing and it just got worse over time. What Moshe said became interchangeable with what God said. And people would keep checking with Moshe and because they wanted to see how Yeshua was different they would ask him questions, like what about divorce. Are we allowed to "put our women away"? And Yeshua would say something like "Moshe said x, but verily I tell you y, because z". He was good at that. And it basically caused them to look back before Moshe, before he created this religious system, and try to imagine how things were supposed to be; should have been. His general response against divorce is that people weren't supposed to divorce at all. But when questioned about Moses command to take their brother's wife the situation is so complicated that Yeshua basically says there's no marriage in Heaven.

In reality, the law in question was simply absurd. A brother should impregnate his brother's wife to raise up seed for his dead brother? If it wasn't for war this probably wouldn't exist and it's quite obviously this was thought up by a man. You might think that marriage should be about love. But under Moshe is was more about men and their property. It doesn't matter if the brothers are twins. That's still not the dead brother's child. All you're doing is giving the dead brother's wife to a man who may or may not have lusted over her while his brother was alive; like giving a child's toy to other child to play with while that child is gone.

Yeshua was a rabbi, which was basically a traveling teacher like a combination between a pastor and a missionary; kind of a proto-evangelist. As a teacher he was expected to know the law and the Pharisees expected him to teach the law. Teaching something different was a challenge, not only to the legacy of Moshe, but also to the current authority of the Pharisees and Sadducees; and the Sanhedrin. People like Nicodemus were curious and found wisdom in Yeshua's words, but the rest saw him as a threat. So, like Moshe did long before them, they set out to sacrifice Yeshua in service to their own power and corrupt leadership.

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 9/13/2019 4:37:58 PM

Did Yeshua and Moshe have different Gods?

The danger in opposing Moshe was the same as challenging the orthodoxy of any religion. You risk pushing your side further to extreme and alienating everyone who thinks the mainstream is legitimate at least to some degree.

So the story of Yeshua is interwoven with these elements to make Yeshua a legitimate superior to Moshe. I'm not saying he was or that any view of him was correct. I'm talking about the story itself. The story itself seems very aware of the story of Moshe and why that story worked in gaining the massive influence that it did. So the gospel writers all knew that Yeshua would have to have his own elements to support his credibility. I think that's why we see miracles because Moshe did miracles. If Moshe had done miracles and Yeshua hadn't people would say Moshe has more credibility and therefore the Mosaic law is the standard. Why? Because the miracles were what proved to them that he was legit and that he could legitimately speak for God.

So is there any wonder then why Yeshua's story has to match this? Even Moshe's existence was seen as a miracle because he should have been killed and yet it wasn't God who saved Moshe. It was an attempt to con, defraud, deceive the Egyptians, to make them think Moshe was a gift from the Nile. I think they knew better but if the whole story of killing babies is true what would have been almost never done would be for a child to be held by a princess and then taken from her arms to be executed. I believe she simply had too much empathy for the child to allow Moshe to be put to death.

The followers of Yeshua had a difficult task. They had to make Yeshua seem legitimate. When you read about what they did to fulfill the prophecies these were things that were almost overtly intentional, like they were reading of script of boxes they had to check off.

"Go get me a donkey."
"Donkey. Check."

Is it fulfilling prophecy if you're literally reading it and deciding to do what the prophecy says would be done by that person? I don't think so. I do think there was deception going on, on both sides, but that deception was made necessary by the Moshe side because of all the lies produced that were now believed and taken for doctrine. Yeshua had to have a strong resume in order to not be seen as a heretic.

And so while they were doing that, and especially while they were trying to establish his credibility, they certainly did not want go too far in looking like they were against Moshe. Instead, it was more like "oh that was for that time and only because the people were messed up" etc. But in reality they had 2 different views of God.

Here's where we have to get real honest and it might be a little painful to hear. Yes, Moshe's God was faked. I'm sure you probably got that insinuation by now, but if I didn't say it before I'm saying it bluntly now. It was all a con. It was all a magic show. You go to see a magic show and every trick is all about the magician; all about giving the magician the credibility to pull off the next trick without you noticing the sleight of hand or whatever he has to do to pull off the deception. And its designed to make magic seem real when the magicians knows its not. The same is true here. Do you think Moshe was confused? No. He was the magician. He knew it wasn't real. But he knew that people would think it was. The person who claims they spoke to God and God gave them this message; they know they're lying. They know it. They're simply counting on you not to call their bluff.

So Moshe's God was basically his own alter-ego. This is why he claims to have seen the "hind parts" of God, knowing that "no man has seen God at any time" and that no man was going to in the future and so he didn't have to worry about a false description. He could have said "omg God is a purple dinosaur" a no one could have ever corrected him. All he had to do was make sure no one else was there. And so there are never any witnesses. At one point they said his face was lit up and people were scared of him.

Contrast this the previous stories where God sends angels or "malakim" to relay his messages. This word in Hebrew literally means messengers. In Sodom they were visible. Jacob even wrestled with one. It was supposedly an angel that shut the door to Noah's ark. Angels blocked the way in Eden. Angels are essentially a staple of Hebrew stories up until Moshe. When angels are included in the story of Moshe they aren't visible and may not have been represented in any kind of tangible human form. In Sodom the angels we visible to both Lot's family as well as the people of the city. And it was because they were visible that Lot offered his own daughters rather than break hospitality; something most people find repulsive. So even when it would have been better to be invisible, they weren't. But for Moshe, conveniently, their presence could never be used to prove to the Israelites that their God was real because only Moshe ever "saw" anything. And that means that if you don't believe Moshe then he was more than likely lying about what he saw.

Yeshua, on the other hand, never claimed such an encounter. However, in Matthew 17, the writer feels the need to create this supernatural image where Moshe and Elijah are talking to Yeshua. This ranks about a 9.8 on the far-fetched o meter. First of all... the idea came from Moshe. Like Moshe the story makes Yeshua's face shine and they even made his clothes shine too, kind of one-upping Moshe's story. But the part that seems totally ridiculous, even more than that, is the idea that the witness could positively identify both Moshe and Elijah in a world without cameras and photography. How would anyone know what Moshe looked like let alone him and Elias? Did they have labels over their heads like they got tagged in a photo? Did they have Hello name tags? No Christian alive could pick Yeshua out of a line up unless it was a middle eastern man standing among 4 white men and even then many Christians would still get it wrong and choose the guy with the longest hair.

So for me, its not a question of whether this actually happened or not. The question is why is the author saying it did. What was the purpose? Why would Yeshua need some kind of weird rapture time out where he takes a break from looking human and needs to have a chat with two other figures who could only give him credibility if people saw this. But this didn't happen for the sake of many witnesses and Yeshua kept saying that he hadn't told people who he was and so when he asked and Peter said "son of the living God" (not "God the son") he said that was the truth. And moreover, "son of God" didn't carry the same meaning then. According to 1 John 3, anyone can be called a son of God and anyone who meets the qualifications should. But I could argue that David failed miserably and God still called him his son. Adam was also called the son of God. Of course, who did they not see in Matthew 17? God. This is often used to make Jesus look like he's a god but those people don't seem to have read Mark 12:29-34 where the Deuteronomy 6 is quoted and affirmed.

But still there is all this hype and mystery and so many of the followers of Yeshua, to this day, don't know who he was, what he was, what his title was, if he was the messiah, or if he is a deity. It's amazing really but it simply shows how people were worshipers of men and how they made humans divine. What was even stranger in Matthew 17 was the notion of "should we build tabernacles for the 3 of you?"

But despite all the confusion, Yeshua regards God as "the Father", who is loving and forgiving and wants to save his children. Moshe's God is one that he had to convince not to destroy his children entirely and start over with him and Joshua. The fact that Moshe's God was harsh and unforgiving allowed Moshe to be harsh and unforgiving. It allowed him to punish the people for their free will, including the decision of what to believe. They could effectively be told what to believe and be bullied into it. Whatever their parents saw or didn't see, they simply had to be told what happened. Anyone who was really there and saw it and somehow wasn't impressed and didn't believe... they didn't survive long enough to cast that doubt. They were either killed immediately after the golden calf incident or they were walked to death in the desert. I believe this is why the Israelites were never truly faithful to YHWH. Scribes can go back and make it seem like they were after the fact, but they followed after other gods more than a few times. And I don't think it helped that their God was invisible while all these other gods could be sculpted and painted and had interesting backstories. They didn't really know their own God. What they knew was Moshe and what Moshe told them to do. Their God was all "do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that." But they didn't really know anything about him.

Because it wasn't about him. It was about Moshe.

To a large extent the New Testament is all about Yeshua. However, at least he uses himself as a positive image to say this is what God is like. So they set a higher morality bar for the "children of God" and then used the "children of God" to represent their father. The tree is known by its fruit. These wise words help us see that the earlier olive tree was rotten. It was bad because the roots were bad. Yeshua's God may not have been perfect. I just feel no need or reason to criticize his version of God; especially since I don't believe it exists either. However, if the people followed Yeshua's version they would have been much better off. In reality they were following people, not gods. But at least Yeshua wasn't a bad guy. I do think that he lied but I think he did so for the right reasons. They wouldn't have listened to him otherwise.

One of the things I love about Rastafarianism is that it exemplifies this sort of John the Baptist spirit... this rough rebellious spirit that is zealous for righteousness. And that message of Love has permeated the Rastaman's concept of Jah. Rastas basically said, guess what? We have our own Jesus, our own messianic figure that represents our views and the wisdom of African pride. His Imperial Majesty. I know this may offend Christianity that would like to see itself as superior but the truth is that Christianity is simply an evolution of Moses that still isn't perfect and we still don't have world peace. And we still had slavery. And we still had women treated as property. And we still had suffering and hate. And we still have so much corruption and unrighteousness and now it is ESPECIALLY in the Christian church. So excuse me, but a messiah can be whoever you need him to be in order to get to that mountain top where you can see the "hind parts" of God. And until you can see that its you.

One Love.

Messenger: JAH Child Sent: 9/15/2019 5:51:08 AM

Give thankhs IPXninja. This is a really well thought-out, really well studied, logical, and non theatrical description of the history behind the Judeo-Christian writings. And I agree fully with the conclusion that you came to in the end.
My question is, after all of this logical analysis and all of the conclusions you came to, is there any use at all in reading the bible?
Because I sometimes see you quote bible verses and scriptures, so I wonder, why do that when you have already come to the conclusion that all of these people were just making up their own ideas about what divinity is and how it should be approached by people?
Ises, Oneness.

Messenger: RastaGoddess Sent: 9/15/2019 1:37:30 PM

Good analysis.

Good question sistren JAH CHILD

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 9/16/2019 10:06:20 AM

That is a very good question. I actually think Paul (who I must admit I didn't like or trust for awhile... wait... I still don't fully trust Paul lol), Paul had a good answer when he said the law was a school master. This has been misunderstood by many people over the years but essentially he was saying that the law (referring to the Torah) was like training wheels on a bike. You may definitely need them in order to learn how to ride but once you know how to ride you shouldn't need them and in fact, they may get in the way. So training wheels, I think, is a good metaphor.

And when I say "get in the way" I don't mean that morality should be totally subjective. It's more like... we have to be conscious of what we should call the "spirit of the law" above all else. Like the constitution of the U.S it was not a perfect document. The problem is that when we treat it that way we judge each other which leads to negative feelings and even hate. Just as the woman was caught in adultery and people picked up stones for different reasons...whole nations may pick up metaphoric stones to throw at each other for the same type of reasons in the macro sense. And so, is us judging each other worse than the crime in question? Is the fruit of that tree beneficial to mankind as a whole? Or does it play the opposite to love and cause us to hate and separate; becoming increasingly disunited. And from that lack of unity and harmony we lack the connection that discourages us to sin against each other.

It's much easier to say "I would kill someone if God told me to" if you were disassociated with that person. If you were Abraham and God asked you to kill your son, Isaac, would you be just as willing? Or would you agonize over it? Would it cause you to question God over it? You see, that agony should be the same whether it is your son or a stranger because killing someone is murder; whether your son or not, whether you were told to do it or not. It's still murder. The law is essentially what Moshe told his people to do as the [for all intents and purposes] Priest-King of Israel. But he himself was a murderer. Jacob was a liar and thief. Abraham was lied and benefited financially from it. If they were all judged according to the law, would Israel even exist?

Riding the bike means not needing to be told how to ride the bike. Training wheels. If you need to be told then you still need them. But if you know how to love yourself (who represents God) and others (who also represent God) then you have fulfilled the law. The rest is training wheels to help those who don't know what love is. But where the Pharisees and all those guys went left is that they didn't love each other. Everyone was using the law as a common point of reference that they could all use to understand each other. Yeshua had to use Moshe's writings. He had no choice. It's not like he could use his own. He had to deal with people who were on 'that level' and use their reference material so they had common ground. Christians act like people in the New Testament era could quote from NT books when they weren't even written yet. Which means everyone, no matter how they felt about Moshe, had to quote Moshe. They had to start there and elevate from there and stand on Moshe's shoulders so that one day Christians could come along and stand on theirs. Thomas Edison invented the light bulb but the story of the light bulb is older than that. Edison was only improving on an earlier design. Everything evolves.

I love the bible. However, my views of it have obviously evolved. I'm not going to let the bible tell me that the bible is true or tell me that Solomon was the wisest man who ever lived. The writers can have an opinion but their opinions are based on their limited knowledge. They weren't omniscient. If Solomon was alive today he wouldn't be because he would have died from AIDS back in 1995. There is no way I can consider a man wise who does not value women to be equal. And there is no reason, if women are equal, to have multiple wives or concubines. They obviously aren't allowed to have multiple husbands so that is not equality. However, when I was younger I didn't get this, not because I thought women were inferior, but because I was taking my cues from the bible and letting it, vis a vis patriarchal bigoted ego and testosterone driven men, mansplain how things should be. And we have done the biggest disservice to our women, allowing them to be lowered into this inferior position all because we listened to a snake tell us a story about a woman listening to a snake in the garden of Eden. We couldn't tell who the real snake was and so... again, like the law being a school master/ training wheels, our crime against women, was far greater than Eve's "disobedience".

I'm sorry, but a lot of men back in those days were monsters. Maybe everyone was and we've just been evolving in a moral dimension slowly and continuously until now. But if the law is accurate, men in Hebrew society completely abused their women. We just all but these blinders on because someone told us that these were God's laws. And whatever this "God" (Moshe's version of God... which was Moshe himself) says MUST by DEFINITION be righteous. The bible says God is love and therefore we try to force LOVE into a box that is constricted and confined by a set of values which are forever relative to biblical standards. If you are bound to those biblical standards you are binding your definition of Love down to standards lower than what exist in modern atheist society. At that point, atheists could teach you a thing or two about love because there is no heaven or hell for an atheist to fear. So if they treat you with love and respect its' 100% genuine and from the heart. And often they do behave better than Christian do because Christians, again... become the "religious" equivalent to the Pharisees and use the bible to JUDGE everyone who isn't Christian like they are (us vs the others) and condemn everyone else to hell for all the things people do which they believe violate God's law (varying based on denomination but could be something as petty as the wearing of jewelry). Atheists, on the other hand, don't have a standard from the ancient world with lesser evolved moral standards, from which to pull by force into the modern world to judge others and therefore separate themselves via self-righteous adherence to the letter of Mosaic law or their interpretation of the bible in general.

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 9/16/2019 10:06:42 AM

And that leads, inexorably or inevitably, to revolution... to people like John the Baptist... to people like Yeshua... to Christ figures of all walks of life who MUST, by their nature, rebel against WHATEVER system represents, BABYLON, to them. Pause and consider this; that Moshe and the Mosaic law was BABYLON to Yeshua and his disciples. Yeshua was trying to wake people up. He was a brilliant visionary and I respect him because he understood that to a certain degree he had to emulate his Babylon in order to survive it, in order to change it. In order to change it he had to subject himself to it, and somewhat be accepted by it. If he didn't fulfill any prophecies in anyone's perception, whether natural or faked, people would not believe he was "THE ONE" just like in the movie THE MATRIX, most of the crew believed Neo was the one and helped him until Neo was able to believe in himself that he was the one. Cypher (meaning zero) didn't believe and became an obstacle.

If you look at Yeshua's life in the gospels you'll see that his abilities were tied directly to belief. Even the belief of the disciples influenced the outcome which is why one time he had to send them out of the house.

We all have this "ONENESS" within us. The question is do you believe in yourself? When we don't believe in ourselves is when we need an external God and therefore an external bible. I have absorbed the bible and so it is now part of me but it isn't the only part and I'm not bound to Mosaic law or the opinions of any other biblical author, even Yeshua. Because I AM... that I AM. I AM "the one". You are the one. But until you believe it you may need the bible or we may need to relate to each other through the bible.

It's interesting. I wonder if, when Moshe came up with God's name... was he cleverly saying that he was God by saying "I am" and simply pretending it to be a third-person voice? We all have our own third person voice; our conscience. But we don't think of it (or our "higher self") as God because, like Neo, we do not believe we are THE ONE. And even when we think we are, we don't "know" that we are. The power comes from that knowledge. I would not have the understanding that I do, the wisdom that I do, perhaps even the intelligence and consciousness that I do, were it not for the existence of the bible and the other sources of inspiration, like The Matrix, like Star Wars, that have drawn inspiration and connections with the bible the same way that the bible itself drew inspiration and connections with gods of different cultures. The proto-Hebrew God, for example, may have been a multitude of Gods (similar to the Epic of Gilgamesh) and then changed because of contact with the Canaanites into a mountain/storm god which was the same archetype that Zeus was based on. The bible and its God evolved several times and the scribes did a decent job of hiding it. Simply using the title "God" itself is a great way to hide that evolution.

The Mosaic prohibition of following after other gods included even learning about them and so this allowed the evolutionary tracks to be covered over because we're not actively comparing the bible to other ancient myths and gods. Because the only ones really keeping that information alive are the "Gentiles" who were culturally regarded as dirty. Yeshua was like, (paraphrasing) This woman is a Samaritan right? So she's a dog right? Of course not. She was simply raised in a different tradition and it was Hebrew tradition that Yeshua was attacking. That tradition was the very basis of what every Israelite thought they knew. But they were wrong. That woman was a human being just like them; and deserving of the very same EQUAL treatment, equal love, equal respect, equal opportunities, as them. But as Israelites they were elitists because they thought God only loved them and only fought for them and wanted them to rule the whole world. This is exactly the same mindset as an Adolf Hitler. And we see it easily because he was German but to other Germans all they could see was a leader who wanted the best for them; his people. F everyone else. And even though I love saying Hitler was a Christian, it is probably only accurate on paper. Men like him, like Constantine, like Moshe, like Donald Trump, were only loyal to a religion in so much as they could use it to gain or maintain power. When Trump said "two Corinthians" I thought that was the funniest thing I would hear all year. And amazingly enough, he's got Christians conned enough to have their support. It's about power. That's why I love the bible but I understand its limitations and its effectiveness in controlling societies. Moshe used "the word of God" to control a society for his own glory and benefit. And now his name is immortal and we're still talking about him thousands of years later. That will never happen for any of us here. So he already won life. He won it. He got away with it. He wasn't murdered the way the founder of the Mormon church was. However, he may have won but I'm free and if I can expose him to other people in a way that may assist in freeing their minds or the minds of others? Then that's part of my own journey as "the one". But again... just as "I am", so are you.

Follow in the footsteps of Yeshua and become so divinely inspired, so enlightened, that people confuse you for God, because that's who you really are. And I don't mean this in some mystical esoteric sense. I simply mean it in the sense that God (Elohim) = the most powerful. That is a position of relative distinction. If you walk into court and let that judge judge your case it is because you agree and submit yourself to that person's authority. We are all giving authority to Babylon, whether its by vote or participation. But all these positions of power are simply filled by other human beings, no different than ourselves. And WE, being one, but thinking otherwise, simply don't realize it is all us in ALL of those positions; the abused and the abuser. And that's why the abused often becomes the next generation of abusers. The Matrix just gets rebooted. We have to break this cycle. The people in the bible represent us because they too were human. But we have to see them as an older version of ourselves with now outdated software. Don't ignore them. Learn from them. But don't let them define or tell you who you are or who you should be. You have to tell yourself who they were and contrast that with who you want to be. This is a step in how we get free. Was Eve wrong? Or was it God? Do you have the freedom of consciousness to even ask this question let alone answer it for yourself? Or do we simply say "amen" every time someone tells us what thus saith the Lord even when no witnesses exist to tell us that's who they're talking to?

I don't want us to be naive as a species but rather as Yeshua said... be wise as serpents but harmless as doves. I listen to that because I feel the wisdom and the love in that; not because he said it but because it is objectively valuable for instruction. But at the end of the day we all make our own decisions and should own them. That's my opinion, not to be confused with me telling anyone what to think; just as the bible deserves to be heard as a group of opinions that could be valuable or not. We simply shouldn't assume pro or con, but rather be neutral and evaluate what everyone is saying based on what everyone is saying and not based on any presumptions of righteousness or importance based on who the person is, their culture, their name, their lineage, etc. They could be lying just as easily as you or I. As the bible says "God is no respecter of persons". So why should we?

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