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Discipline

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Messenger: Alexander Sent: 10/6/2007 2:15:27 PM
Reply

I have not lived in a society where physical punishment is something acceptable so I realize you might have a broader view on this whole thing, Ras KebreAB. However, I always try to keep an open mind as you never know the ways of Jah. Still, I have not heard anything convincing enough for me to believe that Jah wants us to punish our children this way.

Anyway, many thanks for this positive reasoning.


Messenger: Ras KebreAB Sent: 10/6/2007 2:51:31 PM
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lol , yes i, i know you are not convinced, but if the words of your idren who speak from their life experiences doesnt make you wonder if your views might be wrong, then i dont know what kind of proof the i is looking for.

But i just wanted to ask the i a question. Earlier the i said "from almost every story I have heard from people that were hit as a child, I believe I can make the assumption that it is nothing but an extremely negative experience for a child."

I was just wondering where these "people" were raised. I am not asking what nationality or race of family they were raised in..but where


Messenger: Alexander Sent: 10/6/2007 4:01:28 PM
Reply

Idren, I am not sure what you mean with "where" if not nationality. Could you please specify?

Also, the kind of proof I am looking for is the of the kind that makes me know in my heart that it is the truth.


Messenger: Ras KebreAB Sent: 10/6/2007 8:18:33 PM
Reply


"Also, the kind of proof I am looking for is the of the kind that makes me know in my heart that it is the truth."

Yes i,and you know the only thing that can do that for you.
Experience, right? So the i overs why i keep coming back to this topic?

When i asked where? , i meant in which society ? , the kind where physical punishment is normal, or this kind of society which frowns upon it ?
Not what race or country they are from but where they were actually raised
But before the i answers, make sure that it is physical punishment and not abuse that the people you mentioned were referring to.


Messenger: Ark I Sent: 10/6/2007 10:54:31 PM
Reply

Alexander, you said,
--------------------------------
Truly, to spare the rod is to hate your son, but I do not think that I and I should think that it is a physical rod that is spoken of.
--------------------------------

People can look at the rod in different ways, and a rod whether physical or verbal have their use. But the reality is, when the Bible is speaking about using the rod in reference to disciplining a child, it is speaking about the physical rod, there should be no doubt about that. People in those days disciplined their children with a physical rod, just as people in most days of history used a physical rod, including many in these days.

you said,
--------------------------------
Physical punishment is something very negative and ineffective to me, and I just want for all children to have the most positive upbringing possible.
--------------------------------

Physical punishment can be seen as negative in some ways, because it causes pain, but when used properly, positive comes from it and the pain only lingers a short time. Here is an example of a somewhat similar situation. In order to make a muscle stronger, it must be damaged a little, that is the only way. When the muscle gets minor damage through exerting the muscle, the body heals the muscle and also builds a little more muscle so that it can better handle the load next time. So damaging the muscle can be seen as negative in some ways, but the only way it is possible for the positive of the muscle growing to occur, is for the damage to occur first. I know that physical punishment is not the only way to discipline a child, but it is a way.

Also, in regard to you saying that it is ineffective. That is completely untrue. The majority of spankers and spankees, and spankees that grew up to be spankers, will tell you that it is was effective. There is only a small number that have experienced it that will think it is ineffective, and in those cases it is most likely the whole system of discipline that was ineffective, because the parents lacked the knowledge and self-discipline to be effective.

Ark I
RasTafarI
Haile Selassie I



Messenger: Ark I Sent: 10/6/2007 11:17:04 PM
Reply

Alexander,

Ras KebreAB said,

-----------------------------
I overs your views iyah, but i have lived in both societies where physical punishment of children is not accepted and where it is the most natural thing. And i see the differences clearly. Perhaps ones think these verses in the bible are somehow outdated but nothing could be further than the truth
So, the i doesn't have to agree with i, just keep it in your mind, life just might show the i somethings one day, seen
-----------------------------

When Ras KebreAB said he sees the differences, I knew what he was saying and thought about the differences that I see. Some of the differences that I see is that in places where it is acceptable, you would very rarely see a child disrespect their parents and others the way they do in places where it is unacceptable. And a greater percentage of children in places where it is accepted are much more disciplined and have better behaviour then in places where it is not accepted. Of course in both places there are exceptions, but it would not even require a large study to witness the difference. Just do some travelling in different countries and observe how children behave and the difference will be obvious.


Ark I
RasTafarI
Haile Selassie I


Messenger: Ras KebreAB Sent: 10/7/2007 4:36:59 AM
Reply

Blessed Love

Yes i, Ark I, the i said it well. I think i can get off this topic now
Give thanks
Brethren, Alexander, one thing i have to say,
when the i says " Physical punishment is a form of violence, no matter what you call it.",
i hope that you stop to think that by saying that you are implying,directly or indirectly, that millions and millions of parents in Africa and around the world are violent people.

More Love
Rastafari Is


Messenger: Alexander Sent: 10/7/2007 5:49:40 AM
Reply

I think I am ready to get off this reasoning now too. We have shared our different beliefs, but clearly this is very much a question of cultural principles. I do not believe in physical punishment and I do not think I could ever bring myself to think that it is right, especially when there are many other ways to raise a child.

However, Ark I, something you said upsets me a bit. You said:
"Physical punishment can be seen as negative in some ways, because it causes pain, but when used properly, positive comes from it and the pain only lingers a short time. Here is an example of a somewhat similar situation. In order to make a muscle stronger, it must be damaged a little, that is the only way. When the muscle gets minor damage through exerting the muscle, the body heals the muscle and also builds a little more muscle so that it can better handle the load next time. So damaging the muscle can be seen as negative in some ways, but the only way it is possible for the positive of the muscle growing to occur, is for the damage to occur first. I know that physical punishment is not the only way to discipline a child, but it is a way."

By saying this, you are in a way saying that the end justifies the means, which I cannot stand for. This is a completely different discussion, I just want to say that I do not think that what you said is a good way to reason.

Also, Ras KebreAB, I am not judging anyone as violent. I am simply saying that I think that the action of using physical punishment is a violent one.


Messenger: Ras KebreAB Sent: 10/7/2007 7:42:10 AM
Reply

Iyah, the i really have hard ears, the problem is you keep thinking that i am trying to convince of you of something.
Your first mistake is, if you had heard anything that i have been saying, you wouldnt think that it is a "belief" that i am speaking of.

Many ways to raise a child ? How many ways are there but with love and discipline ?
Cultural principles ? Well, ini will uphold the cultural principles of ini incient forefathers and mothers who have been raising ini children with love and strict discipline for centuries upon centuries. But ones like the i, who have got this idea that you are somehow more "progressive" need to figure out whose cultural principles you are upholding.

I AM NOT trying to convince of you of anything, i am not trying to tell you how to raise your children. But as this is a Rastafari forum, i will speak to all i idren and advice them to raise ini youths with Love and Discipline. Love without disciple is nothing. Discipline without love is nowhere.

As for what it is that upset the i about what Ark I said, i am still trying to figure it out. I will let the idren respond himself, but i just want to ask....
From what i overs, Ark I is saying that through something that might seem negative at the time, positive will come later. How is that any different than "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying " ?

And to the violent thing lol, iyah, let us not try to get around something when there is no getting around it
Alright, granted, if you see me commit a violent act once, you might think, oh, that man might be a violent person OR he might be a non-violent person who has just been pushed to commit a violent act.

But iyah, if you see i commit a violent act on a regular and natural basis, what are you going to think ? honestly
Until you realize that physical punishment has nothing to do with violence, your reasoning wont bear no fruit, you have to overs that

Just remember iyah that this is your idren speaking to you. do not be hard eared and just hold on to your point and wont be moved no matter what anyone says.
I really cant stand it when you try to show someone something good of what you know firsthand,and all they can say, this is my point, that is your point, thats it, or this is my belief, that is your belief, thats it........now that is a terrible way to reason, in my isight, that is such a easy way out to take , when ini are supposed to reason down to the Truth of the matter.

Like Ark i says, travel a little, go to these societies ini speak of and experience it for yourself, experience teaches widom

Blessed Love and Ises
Rastafari is


Messenger: Alexander Sent: 10/7/2007 8:46:34 AM
Reply

I am sorry, Idren, I guess I am a bit hard eared on this matter. I probably should not have gone into this discussion as I do not feel that it is something that I am ready to change my view on.

As for the violence thing, I guess this is the reason I am so hard eared on this topic, I really cannot see physical punishment as anything else than justified violence.

About what Ark I said, I will let him clarify his point before I go on with that.

I agree with you, Ras KebreAB, that only sharing your different beliefs without actually getting anywhere is a bad way to reason, I am sorry about that I reasoned that way.

You are probably right in saying that I need more experience on this whole thing, for instance to live in societies where physical punishment is accepted. Until then, I think I will drop this subject.


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