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Romans 7 and 8

1 - 9

Time Zone: EST (New York, Toronto)

Messenger: gideon Sent: 5/25/2005 3:16:31 PM

Romans 7 No Longer Bound to the Law Now, dear brothers and sisters--you who are familiar with the law--don't you know that the law applies only to a person who is still living? Let me illustrate. When a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries. So this is the point: The law no longer holds you in its power, because you died to its power when you died with Christ on the cross. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, you can produce good fruit, that is, good deeds for God. When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced sinful deeds, resulting in death. But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God, not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way, by the Spirit. Gods Law Reveals Our Sin Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is evil? Of course not! The law is not sinful, but it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "Do not covet." But sin took advantage of this law and aroused all kinds of forbidden desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. I felt fine when I did not understand what the law demanded. But when I learned the truth, I realized I had broken the law and was a sinner, doomed to die. So the good law, which was supposed to show me the way of life, instead gave me the death penalty. Sin took advantage of the law and fooled me; it took the good law and used it to make me guilty of death. But still, the law itself is holy and right and good. But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my doom? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God's good commandment for its own evil purposes. Struggling with Sin The law is good, then. The trouble is not with the law but with me, because I am sold into slavery, with sin as my master. I don't understand myself at all, for I really want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do the very thing I hate. I know perfectly well that what I am doing is wrong, and my bad conscience shows that I agree that the law is good. But I can't help myself, because it is sin inside me that makes me do these evil things. I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn, I can't make myself do right. I want to, but I can't. When I want to do good, I don't. And when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway. But if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing it; the sin within me is doing it. It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God's law with all my heart. But there is another law at work within me that is at war with my mind. This law wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin. Romans 8 Life in the Spirit So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. For the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you through Christ Jesus from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses could not save us, because of our sinful nature. But God put into effect a different plan to save us. He sent his own Son in a human body like ours, except that ours are sinful. God destroyed sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the requirement of the law would be fully accomplished for us who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit. Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. If your sinful nature controls your mind, there is death. But if the Holy Spirit controls your mind, there is life and peace. For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God. But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them are not Christians at all.) Since Christ lives within you, even though your body will die because of sin, your spirit is alive because you have been made right with God. The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as he raised Christ from the dead, he will give life to your mortal body by this same Spirit living within you. So, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation whatsoever to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. For if you keep on following it, you will perish. But if through the power of the Holy Spirit you turn from it and its evil deeds, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. So you should not be like cowering, fearful slaves. You should behave instead like God's very own children, adopted into his family--calling him "Father, dear Father." For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we are God's children. And since we are his children, we will share his treasures--for everything God gives to his Son, Christ, is ours, too. But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering. The Future Glory Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will give us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, everything on earth was subjected to God's curse. All creation anticipates the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. And even we Christians, although we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, also groan to be released from pain and suffering. We, too, wait anxiously for that day when God will give us our full rights as his children, including the new bodies he has promised us. Now that we are saved, we eagerly look forward to this freedom. For if you already have something, you don't need to hope for it. But if we look forward to something we don't have yet, we must wait patiently and confidently. And the Holy Spirit helps us in our distress. For we don't even know what we should pray for, nor how we should pray. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God's own will. And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And he gave them right standing with himself, and he promised them his glory.

Messenger: gideon Sent: 5/25/2005 3:21:25 PM

This is the commentary the bible search page had on these verses: So long as a man continues under the law as a covenant, and seeks justification by his own obedience, he continues the slave of sin in some form. Nothing but the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, can make any sinner free from the law of sin and death. Believers are delivered from that power of the law, which condemns for the sins committed by them. And they are delivered from that power of the law which stirs up and provokes the sin that dwells in them. Understand this not of the law as a rule, but as a covenant of works. In profession and privilege, we are under a covenant of grace, and not under a covenant of works; under the gospel of Christ, not under the law of Moses. The difference is spoken of under the similitude or figure of being married to a new husband. The second marriage is to Christ. By death we are freed from obligation to the law as a covenant, as the wife is from her vows to her husband. In our believing powerfully and effectually, we are dead to the law, and have no more to do with it than the dead servant, who is freed from his master, has to do with his master's yoke. The day of our believing, is the day of being united to the Lord Jesus. We enter upon a life of dependence on him, and duty to him. Good works are from union with Christ; as the fruitfulness of the vine is the product of its being united to its roots; there is no fruit to God, till we are united to Christ. The law, and the greatest efforts of one under the law, still in the flesh, under the power of corrupt principles, cannot set the heart right with regard to the love of God, overcome worldly lusts, or give truth and sincerity in the inward parts, or any thing that comes by the special sanctifying influences of the Holy Spirit. Nothing more than a formal obedience to the outward letter of any precept, can be performed by us, without the renewing, new-creating grace of the new covenant. (Ro 7:7-13)

Messenger: gideon Sent: 5/25/2005 3:24:48 PM

More commentary from the biblesearch page: The use and excellence of the law. There is no way of coming to that knowledge of sin, which is necessary to repentance, and therefore to peace and pardon, but by trying our hearts and lives by the law. In his own case the apostle would not have known the sinfulness of his thoughts, motives, and actions, but by the law. That perfect standard showed how wrong his heart and life were, proving his sins to be more numerous than he had before thought, but it did not contain any provision of mercy or grace for his relief. He is ignorant of human nature and the perverseness of his own heart, who does not perceive in himself a readiness to fancy there is something desirable in what is out of reach. We may perceive this in our children, though self-love makes us blind to it in ourselves. The more humble and spiritual any Christian is, the more clearly will he perceive that the apostle describes the true believer, from his first convictions of sin to his greatest progress in grace, during this present imperfect state. St. Paul was once a Pharisee, ignorant of the spirituality of the law, having some correctness of character, without knowing his inward depravity. When the commandment came to his conscience by the convictions of the Holy Spirit, and he saw what it demanded, he found his sinful mind rise against it. He felt at the same time the evil of sin, his own sinful state, that he was unable to fulfil the law, and was like a criminal when condemned. But though the evil principle in the human heart produces sinful motions, and the more by taking occasion of the commandment; yet the law is holy, and the commandment holy, just, and good. It is not favourable to sin, which it pursues into the heart, and discovers and reproves in the inward motions thereof. Nothing is so good but a corrupt and vicious nature will pervert it. The same heat that softens wax, hardens clay. Food or medicine when taken wrong, may cause death, though its nature is to nourish or to heal. The law may cause death through man's depravity, but sin is the poison that brings death. Not the law, but sin discovered by the law, was made death to the apostle. The ruinous nature of sin, and the sinfulness of the human heart, are here clearly shown. (Ro 7:14-17)

Messenger: Ras Sistren Khamyl Sent: 5/25/2005 7:23:15 PM

did not Christ himself say, "I come into this world to fulfill the law, not do away with it?"

Messenger: Ark I Sent: 5/26/2005 11:59:23 PM

Here is a reasoning related to those Scriptures. It shows other scriptures of Paul that better explain what he is saying, showing that he is saying the same thing that Khamyl just said. Many don't like to think about the part I am going to show, because it goes against their philosophy of "acceptable wickedness" and being "saved by Jesus". But before I show the part about Paul, I will speak from the Christian Source, Christ. I and I are to be One with Jah and One with Christ, not separate. But people would prefer to listen to the preacherman, or apostles, over the words of Christ. The sacrifice of Christ, was that he taught I and I Jah way, because he knew that he would have to sacrifice his body to teach I and I this, because he knew that babylon would crucify him for teaching the truth to the people. But he still showed I and I, he sacrificed himself for this. So when people forget his words and teachings, it is a disrespect to the sacrifice Christ gave in order to show I and I these words. Christ said, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. This is not a request, and Christ didn't say try to be so, but he said Be ye therefore perfect. And for people that think that the perfection is something less than this or that, Christ showed them, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. So this kind of perfection is the highest form of perfection there is. The apostle Paul in some ways misleads the people by confusing them. Maybe he was trying to hide the truth so that only some will see, or maybe he was trying to mislead the people, and also inserting the truth, so the people could not speak against him. Only Jah knows this for sure, but the truth still can be seen in the words of Paul. The reason I say that his words are misleading is because he spends so much time sounding like he is saying that we are not required to live perfect, but are supposed to just repent and Christ will save us for our sins. And for only a couple of sentences he shows that the grace he is talking about doesn't make void the law (Law of Jah, not law of man), but the law is established. Romans 3 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Some don't consider what he said above or the other things that he said to show the reality of righteousness, because they are so few in Paul's words. But some people do remember these words, but still don't require themselves to live in Jah way, they think that it will just happen one day when they die. But if people consider the words of Christ and read these words of Paul with Christ's teachings in mind, they will see the Truth. There is no law against righteousness, and if I and I are guided by Jah, then it is impossible to sin, so the law is of no effect for I and I. So by our choice, and the strength of Jah, I and I ways will be made perfect, because Jah will only guide I and I in perfection. Galatians 5 13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. I see this as saying when I and I walk in Jah Spirit, we will not sin 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. So when I and I are led by the Spirit, I and I are not under the law because I and I are only walking in righteousness, because Jah Spirit would never guide I and I towards wickedness Here are the works that are not of the Spirit. Laws do exist against these works, because they are sin 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. The works of the flesh, which is called sin, include those things written above. It is not just the "big" sins like murder and others, but it also includes hatred, wrath, strife, envyings, drunkenness and revellings. So those that claim they are walking in the Spirit are only truly walking in the Spirit if they don't do these things. Otherwise, the most they could be doing is only partially walking in the Spirit. Here are the fruits of the Spirit, which is called righteousness. No laws exist that are against these actions, so they are not under the law. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. So Christians have crucified the sinful part of theirself, and only walk in righteousness, because that is the only way Jah Spirit guides. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Selassie I also knew this, I have posted this before, but I will post it again. When He sacrificed himself at Golgotha for the atonement of our sin, He prayed with His last breath for the forgiveness of those who had tortured Him saying, 'Father, forgive them for they know not what they do'. Shame on those of us who are Christians and do not follow the way of the Savior of the World, whose life was filled with kindness, humility, and martyrdom! If we lived by the laws he gave us and were worthy of being called Christian, peace would have reigned on this earth. Men were supposed to be the equals of the living angels who unceasingly sang praises before the eternal God. Had this been so, peoples of the world would not have been divided along lines of enmity. Ark I RasTafari Haile Selassie I

Messenger: gideon Sent: 5/28/2005 2:25:10 PM

Great, but maybe you're being too hard on Paul. I think that he just focused on the grace element of the message because he came from a tradition of strict legalism, adherence to the letter of the law. So it is natural for his perspective on the way of Christ to focus on the grace element, since this element was most lacking from his own earlier tradition of thinking. He focuses on the root most to build a solid foundation. This is excellent for a leader of a newly formed organization. Let those who come after build on top of that foundation.

Messenger: Ark I Sent: 5/31/2005 11:50:44 PM

I feel that Paul should have made people more aware that grace was righteousness throughout his reasonings, instead of just writing it in such a small section that many don't see. Jah only guides I and I in righteousness. But I have considered the possibility that he might have written it that way so that only Jah people would see it, that is why one of the possibilities I mentioned said: "Maybe he was trying to hide the truth so that only some will see" I guess I didn't explain Iself fully when I said that, but what I meant was he might have been hiding the truth from those who have eyes to see but can't see, and ears to hear but can't hear. Ark I RasTafarI Haile Selassie I

Messenger: gideon Sent: 6/2/2005 4:29:51 PM

He isn't writing to teach people about Jah. He is writing those letters to the congregations of people that had already accepted the way of christ. So there's no reason for him to describe the origins and the basics, that's why he only briefly mentions them. The only time he talks about grace is to set a foundation for his reasonings. He does this because he knows that he is writing to people who have already accepted the way of grace and faith, so he knows that when he sets this foundation they will be able to follow his reasoning from that foundation, because they are already familiar with it. He is writing to encourage and strengthen those who already know the way of christ, or already know about the way and they have already accepted christ. So he talks about the problems that are common to believers who are accustomed to thinking in the old way. He is really testifying about his own experiences and the problems that he deals with and dealt with, because he knows that all believers leaving babylon will encounter similar trials and situations. It's like telling people about pitfalls that are on a road, knowing that they have already decided to walk on that road as Paul did. He doesn't need to focus on reasons why they should walk the road, because he is not talking to that kind of person. He is taking it for granted that the reader is on the road already, or at least that he thinks and says that he's on the road. Or am I missing your point in some way?

Messenger: Ark I Sent: 6/6/2005 11:29:37 PM

That is another possible explanation to why Paul wrote it the way he did. All I can say is be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Ark I RasTafarI Haile Selassie I

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