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God Or Creation?

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Messenger: Jeffrey Di Lion Sent: 12/12/2022 10:48:57 AM

blessed love my bredrens and sistrens. I have been struggeling with this question and I have seen Muta's videos very recent where he speaks on this topic. I know he is very controversial, but I understand his point.

The definition of God is "The Creator / The Supreme Power"

So when people refer to "The Source Energy" or "The Iniverse" they are not referring to god right? Beacause the universe is not "a creator" It is just "creation"

I understand the argument that we all come from something. A child comes from his mother and father and his mother and father come from a long line of ancestors, but where do the ancestors come from?
Man has created the plane, the spaceship and the computer, but who created that we have two eyes to see with and a brain to think with?

In these contexts, the answer would be that there is a higher intelligence that has created it all (god), but you can also go further and ask "If everything comes from something, then where does "God" come from?" If life is eternal wouldn't it just be creation ruling and creating new things in the universe then? and not a creator?

We don't have evidence of a creator, but we have evidence of Creation.
Isn't God just a mad-made concept then?

Hope I can get some answers
Blessed love to all Rastafari

Messenger: GARVEYS AFRICA Sent: 12/12/2022 4:10:25 PM

Yes Brethren

The wordsound God is less than a few hundred years old. The old testament itself has several original names for what you are describing showing even then there were multiple 'intepretations' of man trying to overstand what you describe, within judaism alone

To narrow things down to a one rigid English dictionary defined name, as conscious people, to me isn't right. I do not use the wordsound God...

You won't hear Muta anytime after the 90s say anything like Haile Selassie is God. Moreso he is the Almighty. Or Almighty I.

To say Haile Selassie is God, is to go into all the classical Rastafari bible reasoning like Matthew 24 or Luke 5:5. I could however easily describe Haile Selassie as the Ntjr Nfr, or as the 1000s of other indigenous examples of sovereign divine representation within human form. Africa has such examples within its native culture, all throughout. This make it much less outlandish when we call upon the King as the Almighty, as it does with Christian mindset alone


Messenger: Ignorant/Wise Rasta Youth Sent: 12/13/2022 6:25:59 AM

Jeffrey Di Lion said: *but you can also go further and ask "If everything comes from something, then where does "God" come from?"*

-Yes and who created the creator of the creator and you can go on.. Nothing can create the creator. The creator is the spirit of all living things and IS eternal. That spirit was manifested in Emperor Haile Selassie I. So was it manifested in Yashua. If God means "The supreme power" isn't the so called "creation" God too then? If you wanna refer to it as that. like you said: *there is a higher intelligence behind it.* That's enough for me..

As I can see the positive result of the faith gives I-self and my fellow human beings in everyday life, I can't burn "God" I have the same proof as you. Did Haile Selassie lose the mystery of the 7 seals? Just look in history books. =Yes H.I.M. did. Haile Selassie I godly spirit is inside InI.

Western atheist scientists have been saying for years that love is just chemicals in the brain that are released due to reproduction. There is no such thing as true love. Homosexuality is also okay in the atheist societies as there is not really that much right or wrong according to them.

In the end, there is no meaning to life if you keep following these doctrines without spirit.

As you said: God means the supreme power. The supreme power is ONE with creation. So is Haile Selassie I One with The supreme power(JAH) = The Earth's rightful ruler.

God is real
With faith in Jah nothing is impossible.
God makes me strong.
I have no fear
God gives me purpose, so he MUST BE REAL


Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 1/23/2023 5:45:52 PM

Yes. This logic is why I do not believe in a personal creator deity.

The whole idea of creation is assumed based on this simple logic; that everything had to come from somewhere. Humans created God as an answer to that equation. However, the story of the bible starts with the Genesis of the Earth, NOT the Genesis of the universe. Why? Because honestly humans revealed what they cared about. They cared about their own origin story, not the origin of the universe. So the truth is they didn't care where God came from which is why they believe God can be the one and only thing that has no origin.

And logically, that's ridiculous.

It is not possible for everything to be created and to start out knowing everything there is to know so that you can create everything. No growth. No learning involved. Just absolute perfection from day one. Hell... there isn't even a such thing as day 1 for a theist because God, in their minds, has not beginning even if the universe does. And don't forget, God has to be composed of some tough stuff to survive the creation of the universe and millions of stars. So not only is he eternal and conscious but just so happens to be stronger and tougher than anything.

Why do we think this? Before we as children, learn about sex, all we know is that our parents are these great and mighty giants who can lift us up and open even the hardest to open cans. They can reach the highest cabinets that we can't get to and we're like... wow... I can't wait to be grown up. We want to be just like our parents... until...

we get older and start seeing their faults. Then they start getting shorter in our view because we get taller. And they aren't as smart as we thought they were.

I love my parents but the point is... we grow up and our parents cease from being invincible. But this is how God works. It is based on the same premise that we are "children" of God and he is the king of the universe. And he can do magic and speak life into existence. Never mind that we can almost do that too with AI.

But as we get older it makes less sense for everything to come from something more intelligent because wouldn't God need to be created by a more intelligent being? who was created by a more intelligent being? ad infinitum? Or does it make more sense that everything learns and grows?

Messenger: jessep86 Sent: 1/23/2023 6:06:35 PM

"we get older and start seeing their faults. Then they start getting shorter in our view because we get taller. And they aren't as smart as we thought they were. "

Not always is this thinking valid. Elders hold ancestral knowledge, not all parents live righteous and hold ancient paths. But to thise who do I allways humble before them and especiall our Hewvenly Father JAH who is perfect. Wisdom knowledge and understanding; we can never have too much. Ttue intelligence is innate to the living and the Living God

Remember your orgin, your origional non manipulated wisdom, innate and independanct of babylon education and ai.

A mystic wrote a poem:

"There are two kinds of intelligence: one acquired,
as a child in school memorizes facts and concepts
from books and from what the teacher says,
collecting information from the traditional sciences
as well as from the new sciences.

With such intelligence you rise in the world.
You get ranked ahead or behind others
in regard to your competence in retaining
information. You stroll with this intelligence
in and out of fields of knowledge, getting always more
marks on your preserving tablets.

There is another kind of tablet, one
already completed and preserved inside you.
A spring overflowing its springbox. A freshness
in the center of the chest. This other intelligence
does not turn yellow or stagnate. It's fluid,
and it doesn't move from outside to inside
through conduits of plumbing-learning.

This second knowing is a fountainhead
from within you, moving out."

JAH is real, pray, fast, take pilgrimage, follow the commandments, seek and, ask and r3cieve, knock and it will be opened, the doors of knowing JAH and not just believing or speculating. Get into nature, get out of babylon, social media and big tech mind control modern day slavery.

But the [unbelieving] doubting scientific dawrin man does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters].
- 1cor 2:14

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see JAH

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 1/24/2023 9:17:54 AM


I appreciate your point of view. However, I think that ancient knowledge is greatly revered based on perspective. But again, this feeds into the holy/sacredness one chooses to apply to the subject which is, unfortunately, also a side effect of a few different things, including indoctrination/manipulation and superstition. It's also greatly influenced by our own ego as a species. The truth is we still want a dad. This need is buried deep in our psychology. So when the opportunity to personify presents itself it was inevitable that we would personify the forces of nature as a man (the socially dominant gender) and turn that man into a father.

It may feel like I'm just attacking religion at this point, but from my perspective that's not it. From my studies what I believe happened is that the most ancient priests were, in fact, scientists. They studied nature constantly because they had the time and passion to invest in it. And as they understood the forces of nature and how they interacted with each other, it was best put in terms that everyone could understand and be taught. But at the time it wasn't easy for very uneducated and unscientific (by our standards) people to grasp complex ideas they didn't even have the vocabulary for. And I don't mean this as an insult. They literally didn't have that many words so they reused words a lot more than we do today. That's why the same word for God was also used for kings and judges. They understood according to context but we today are often confused by this. But because they lacked the vocabulary it was easier to personify the forces of nature into "persons" they could relate to. This is how "personal deities" were born.

And that's why they were often specialists. If you wanted a particular thing you would sacrifice to a certain god thought to govern that thing. We ASSUME that they all look everything literal and that is a huge mistake that Europeans especially made about African religious culture. They assumed Africans were savages because of the fact that we had multiple gods but they never really stopped to consider that they were erroneously assuming that all of those gods were taken literally and not as metaphorical representations of natural ideas and phenomena.

It's no different from hearing a parable of Jesus and questioning him about how old the lost sheep was. It's irrelevant because it wasn't a real sheep he was talking about. He was using concepts that his audience would understand. The rich man passing through the smallest gate in the city wall was something they understood even more than modern Christians because modern Christians lack the context of what a "needle" actually was.

People often act like Jesus invented parables. He did not. Much of what Jesus said wasn't even original thought. Previous teachers used the same teaching methods. The idea was to get people to relate to the subject matter as well as find it interesting and memorable. But all teachers are not honest and the truth is that many people in ancient times saw the power of the priests (including political power) and what they thought was magic powers and they envied it. They wanted that power and so they pretended to be the same; pretended to be priests the same way that Simon pretended to be a disciple who could cast out demons. It was the desire for power that split science and religion and caused both to be misunderstood and rejected by the other.

Much of psychology is a reaction to a particular need. To meet that need we will invoke our imagination to force-fill any gaps that don't make sense. What I'm saying is that if we really want to know the truth we have to re-integrate science and religion. We need to get back to what it was originally and what it was originally designed to be and do. One of the greatest names in science was a priest. It was a priest who discovered evolution. But people are so busy choosing opposite teams that they refuse to see the significance and further maintain their own side's power over the hearts and minds of society.

I still have reverence for my parents just like my ancient ancestors. The only difference is that now it's balanced with the understanding that they weren't always right because they didn't know everything. Needing them to know everything is our problem; not theirs.

Messenger: jessep86 Sent: 1/24/2023 10:58:38 AM

True, the fact Islam is responsable for much scienctific achievments during the golden age of their religion, 8th-13th century

Some ideas do become outdated and do not stand the test of time. Some ideas and ways will be just as valueable in the future as in the end. Like a snake sheding skin or a tree sheding leaves and branches. We dont throw out everything from a previous generation, we take the solid foundation that has been laid for us and build upon it. To think we can have a revolution where all is thrown away and we start from scratch is impossible in my vision. We need certain intelligence that has been living in and through humanity since the beginning of our blessed incarnation.

Elders need the youth as much as the youth need the elders. Too many nursing homes and leaving out parents to rot in old age when it should be a time, a time known as our golden years. Our experience of living a long life has a aura that youth cannot find in books or their own inventions.

" A generation gap refers to the chasm that separates the beliefs and behaviors belonging to members of two different generations. More specifically, a generation gap can be used to describe the differences in thoughts, actions, and tastes exhibited by members of younger generations versus older ones. "

Bob Marley spoke of filling this gap. The younger generation today likes to scorn the elders "ok boomer." And totally does not consider all the ways these boomers have bettered the planet for them today. Hiw can we fill a gap? Love. Jah Love One Love. The generatiins before have made mistakes, slavery, industrial destructiin of environments, extixtion of wildlife, but truth is we all must heal together as one. If this young generation is to be healthy it is going also depend on the forgivness, healing, atonement and salvation of all those who came before. No generation is in this alone, all are connected from the past to the future by the link of us. Here. Now.

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 1/24/2023 5:09:27 PM


I couldn't agree more with what you just said.

Messenger: jessep86 Sent: 1/24/2023 7:54:27 PM


Do you have some good parable sources?

Yeshua defiently knew the power of them to speak to us on deeper levels and many simutaniously.

As long as we have had language and languages we have had ways to create mental and spiritual maps.

Id like to find those parables and mindsets of those Ancients that do hold the key to the future

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 1/25/2023 11:48:33 AM

Every religion has parables. The problem with some religions is that they attempt to own religion itself, stealing away one's personal and individual freedom to learn and explore from the repository of other minds. But again... that comes from the divergence between religion and science that was a power grab.

For hundreds of years, according to the bible, YHWH apparently didn't care that the Hebrews were exploring other religions. All of a sudden, because Moses wanted to be the de facto ruler, he executed anyone who went against his authority. That is the only real reason why the Hebrews were restricted from having other gods. And even the wording of the commandments says "other gods before me" which could be interpreted as you can have other beliefs as long as I am the head/priority. But again... power dynamics.

When I got over the whole complete and total religious loyalty phase of my life I was interested in other creation stories. The truth is that Africa is a WEALTH of spirituality and we're taught to despise it in order to protect the popular narrative. But there are tons of African parables and proverbs that have tons of value.

And for me, because everyone came out of Africa, every thought is related and connected. So even if someone speaks in a foreign language, there's still a connection there with common ideas. And all these ideas are not so much different as they are different flavors. But if you look closely you can often detect the same influences in the bible. And so you can see how different thoughts spread and were traded between villages and cities. There is a greater depth to our human history than we often allow ourselves to see.

So if I were someone who was curious, you don't have to change any beliefs you currently have, I would recommend starting with some African creation myths.

Keep in mind that these are just stories. These represent a fusion between the objectives of teaching morality with trying to figure out how we got here. It's an exchange of ideas not necessarily pitched as absolute truth.

African Creation Stories

African Creation Stories

Fon Creation Stories

Bushmen Creation Stories

Once you start getting into these, because you're smart, you'll see these patterns emerging which gives you a broader idea of how ancient people thought and how they used logic as well as their understanding of science (their knowledge of the environment at the time) and blended it all into these stories. The more stories you read or hear, the more you'll see where I'm coming from when I call ancient priests the first scientists. There are even echoes of concepts like evolution in these stories and you can see how they addressed logical challenges so they were probably aware of previous stories and used their own stories to explain the logical holes.

Example... in the bible it is merely ASSUMED that all animals were created during "creation week". However, the bible makes no attempt to name them all, only the environments they inhabit. We now know there are too many species to have fit on Noah's ark. This is not even a question anymore. However, if Noah's ark only housed a much smaller group of species, if evolution was at play then that group could still produce the 3 - 100 million (or more) species that are estimated to exist today. So while Genesis doesn't say it, other creation myths have a limited number of animals, working under the assumption that they will give birth to other species.

So while it may seem like I'm attacking certain religious ideas, and that may be the case, I'm also being informed by ancient thinking as well. But I'm influenced by several cultures, not just one. And even that one culture was influenced by others. It's just not honest about it. So when I talk about the Epic of Gilgamesh (another parable), the key is that this story is older than the bible. But it clearly influenced the story of Noah. We assume these stories literally happened but there isn't evidence of it in the fossil record. We can literally pull a cylinder of ice and see what's trapped inside or see layers of sediment deposits in canyons that go back millions of years. So science originally told these stories in the first place (ancient priests) and science today is still telling us about the universe. It's up to us whether to listen. I simply see no reason not to listen. And if I'm going to listen to ancient scientists who were the current scientists when they were alive, why wouldn't I listen to current scientists today? Is what I'm saying today somehow going to be more true when my corpse is 3,000 years old? No, it's the same. Either we are right or wrong or both. Time changes nothing. If we only listen to someone because they're ancient that means we would not have listened to those exact same people if we were alive in their lifetimes.

And the bible writers understood this. That's why they said that a prophet isn't accepted in his own country.

At the end of the day... I don't think its "God or Creation". I think its both and we are trying to figure out how God IS Creation. But in order to get there we have to BE ABLE (be open minded) to letting go of absolute dogma and doctrine and try to understand simply how ancient people thought-because how they thought is what created the doctrines and dogma in the first place. If they were superstition then that's totally relevant to how much truth is in their opinions.

So for me... because I believe that ancient humans were telling stories and specifically personifying the forces of nature, therefore creating gods with different names, IMHO, this means that the real God is not likely to be as person but rather a FORCE... or... as I and others would say... THE FORCE. Even the Hebrew word for God, translated, means "power or force". So I submit to you that the ancient writers knew the whole time what they were doing.

And so if you read the ancient stories of the Levant region where the bible came out of you'll see other very similar gods to YHWH; Canaanite gods who were the inspiration for the YHWH character.

When you study this... understanding that the Israelites ancestors lived in Canaan... the pieces of the puzzle should start falling into place.

Ba'al was likely a rival priesthood within their culture. Ba'al translates to Lord/Master. BUt this goes back to the Akkadians and Sumerians. In other words... it's old as hell!

"Hadad since he was a storm-god, but when the god Baal (Hadad) is not specifically attributed the traits of rain and thunder and is instead perceived as a god of the sky generically, which is what is embodied by his form "Baal Zaphon" as the chief deity who resides on the mountain "

This forms the picture of Moses going up to the mountain to receive the commandments while the people heard the voice of God as thunder and saw lighting. And the pillar of fire they saw? And cloud? A mountain (aka volcano). The more you study the whole region the more you see that its all connected.

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