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Rastafari and Capitalism, Socialism, Monarchism

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Time Zone: EST (New York, Toronto)
Messenger: seestem Sent: 6/18/2022 6:37:51 AM


Money is a man made thing, not natural. InI also think value of something is inherent though in this world we have build it is common to think the value lies in the money, like pointing to the moon and all you look at the finger and not the moon!

Blessed love
Rastafari lives!

Messenger: JAH Child Sent: 6/18/2022 4:58:04 PM

Yes beloved bredren and sistren
I am wondering this: is it possible to separate economy and government?
Communism, marxism, capitalism, these are actually ecomonic structures - through government structures such as dictatorships or democratic republics etc these forms of economic structures are imposed on societies.
It could be possible to have a communistic monarchy - if communism was the economic structure that an absolute monarch decreed.
But would it truly work, and would people truly be living in economic equality?

I agree seestem it would take a quantum leap of human spirituality to get to that point of not needing a legal system. We have time and healing to be done before that will be a reality. I still think it is possible, in time.

Messenger: seestem Sent: 6/19/2022 7:42:15 AM

> I am wondering this: is it possible to separate economy and government?

Buttering does not always work because a baker and diary person (what is the correct term here?) cannot always trade their goods (bread <-> milk), for example one day the baker can have already more than enough milk in storage, though the baker can let the milk person owe him and just give them the bread (debt) so next time the baker wants milk they can just go and get the milk without giving more bread. But this does not scale when you add more people, it will be a very inefficient economy to track the debts (though today we have tech that can do this mutual credit systems).

But we could use something rare that takes __work__ to find and use that to represent value and use it to trade. For example we could use Gold, but that too has problems, for example it is heavy to carry around in large amounts.

So we came up with "universal" paper tokens (money notes) to represent the gold in storage (so they say). But the only way these tokens can work is if they are issued by someone we all trust (the baker and diary person or anyone in the country trusts them). So __trust__ is the main thing. Traditionally a trusted entity is a centralized entity (Bank, Government, King etc), or sometimes a centralized entity can force the citizen's to "trust" or use their system (Government's have a monopoly on force with their armies so they can force us to use their currencies). So this is how/why Governments and the economy are connected. Also as a general principle a centralized trusted entity is quite powerful, they can print as much tokens as they want (which can cause inflation) or they can freeze peoples accounts etc.

Another way to look at it is, because people don't trust each other they need a 3rd party arbitrator they both trust so they can trade.

In a small village where everyone knows each other well, they would probably not need banks or 3rd party arbitrators. This why InI also believe anarchism is only possible on a small scale but not on larger scales (say the whole country).

That is an oversimplification of our current financial system, but InI believe we could just as well come up with different ways to structure the economy, especially if we trusted each other more.

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 6/20/2022 5:36:13 PM

Good topic!

seestem: is it possible to separate economy and government?

no. Government provides the rules, legal framework, jurisdiction, and enforcement by which the economy works.

seestem: So __trust__ is the main thing.

100% correct. But of course, trust isn't really the problem. The problem isn't money. It's interest. As I'm sure you've already heard, there isn't enough money in the world to pay back all the interest owed on all the debt.

But like everything else... anything taken to an extreme will always be corrupted. Is the general idea of interest inherently bad/evil? No.

If you need to borrow $20 you should have that ability. At the same time, as you said, "trust" is the main thing. So it is therefore logical that there should be a correlation between how much I can trust you to pay me back and the reward I should be allowed to require for lending the money.

If there is no reward then only people you know would have a sympathetic motive to lend you the money. But this is an unfair system that would favor wealthier families. Banks wouldn't be able to lend without interest because if the money isn't paid back, what then? Even if the money is insured its the tax payers paying.

And what if a person has no money or anything they can trade? In times past this is how people ended up as (debt) slaves or "indentured servants".

One of the functions of government is protecting and giving away land as welling zoning land for different uses. All of this is important because land=money. Landowners were hard on the poor but often the land was granted to their families for free because the government couldn't collect taxes on land no one owned.

It is easy to see that capitalism doesn't take care of everyone. And that's why the US doesn't practice pure capitalism and neither does anyone else. What's not so easy to see is how much worse it would be without capitalism and without the elements of socialism that actually make it work.

Now could we "survive" without any capitalism at all? Yes, of course. But would we prosper? The conversation is often natural vs unnatural and I think it should be. But there are levels of survival. If everyone is a hunter/gatherer for example... everyone's life would be much harder because we wouldn't have science to make even though tasks easier. So what benefits us more than anything is diversity. When you try to say "my pappy was a coal miner!" and glorify it to the point where you want everyone else to mine coal, then coal would be plentiful and therefore have very little value. All that effort would therefore be wasted.

There is sometimes a very bad rift between hunters and gatherers. The first example is the story of Cain and Abel. People even forget, because of this rift bewteen what they do, that they are brothers. Family.

I would love to talk about some kind of better economy that would take care of more people but also empower innovation.

Messenger: seestem Sent: 6/24/2022 5:16:50 AM

IPXninja, great insights mi idren!

Capitalism has allot of benefits, it has brought us so much innovation. But I think it is very short sighted, giving only short term benefits.

Sustainability is crucial and should be a key ingredient in every innovation, we should ask ourselves will we be able to do it in 100 or more years without destroying the planet and ourselves. What good is all this innovation if it can only be enjoyed for a few decades by a few wealthy people and it can destroy the planet?

> I would love to talk about some kind of better economy that would take care of more people but also empower innovation.

True innovation is driven by necessity and not competition, innovation is possible wherever there is necessity and brains. Making fire from rocks or sticks is a hell of an innovation (ironically discovered by "hunter and gatherer"). Not everyone wants 5g, AI, to live forever, self driving cars, gmo, etc etc some people just want a simple life. So they should not be forced to participate in a system and should be given an option to live outside of it, like "hunter and gatherer", those who want to be capitalists or even socialists are free but don't force the whole world and start wars over it.

It is getting harder and harder to live free, we can't just go at the sea and catch fish you need a permit, while the birds are right there catching the fish without a permit naturally natural.

Messenger: seestem Sent: 6/24/2022 5:43:45 AM


Basically what I am saying is there is no generic framework for innovation, it means different things to different people. The most fair economic system I can think of is one that gives people choice between different economic systems and not force people, globalization and centralization is very dangerous and unfair.

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 6/27/2022 6:20:12 PM

Capitalism is short-sighted. I can agree with that to some extent. A person would rather make money for years on an investment than to make money on that investment for only a month. So I don't know about short-term benefits thing. I think it's more like there are pros and cons and one of the main cons is that capitalists tend to think in terms of their own profit above the welfare of everyone. However, the thought of getting sued provides checks and balances.

This doesn't necessarily mean F the planet. It means that people who care about the planet need to also participate and look for ways they can compete because its an industry competition between the old guard (coal/oil) and green energy. But this is also a David v Goliath and that scares people. The same kind of innovative spirit behind green technology is the same innovative spirit that exists in the time of Ford. The motivation is not only to make something work but also to make money at the same time. When you take the profit motive away from people the effort is most often slowed.

Competition is good. If you're a runner and you run next to slow people you'll have a hard time improving as much as if you were racing next to someone faster. Whatever sport or whatever business you get in, there's competition and the struggle to be better than the competition makes products better, cheaper, safer, smarter, etc. Because if you don't do it the competition will.

Sustainability is crucial, but how do we get there? The best way is to support the people and industries that are heading in that direction. Their success will ultimately become the competition for others as well as the old guard.

Let's talk about a real example.

Before Tesla emerged the old guard put out a few electric vehicles. But they made them ugly on purpose because they didn't want to cannibalize their own gas lines. Tesla doesn't have that problem because none of their cars use gas. But now Tesla has the old guard racing in order to put out highly competitive EVs. And there's going to be a war over which company can make the best one and companies that are producing just the technology will now be able to be bought up to have their designs used whereas before they might have still be bought but bought in order to have their designs buried.

Necessity is the mother of invention. However, once the idea is out there, it may be too costly to produce. So even if something feels necessary it may not be affordable. This happens a lot with technology. That's why the first Tesla was the roadster. It needed to be expensive. And that strategy paid off. Once the idea is invented it is profits that drive the effort to make it more affordable. If it's not affordable then it only exists for the rich.

And yes, it's true that not everyone wants these things.

However, one could say the same thing about smartphones in general and now even my mom has one. So even if a generation is perfectly happy walking 5 mi to school, that doesn't mean every generation will make that choice knowing they don't have to.

I foresee a day when farmers will work alongside their AI robots. The farmer will be doing it because he/she loves to do it. And the AI will assist. Technology will enable better farming techniques, less or no pesticides, etc. Capitalism doesn't force anyone to be capitalist. You can have various types of businesses, including a coop where profits are equally shared.

Now the stuff about permits, I feel you but at the same time, I like the idea that certain people can have their permits revoked because of how they may abuse their freedom. The same is true for drivers and the same should be true for gun owners.

Messenger: Evison Matafale Skræling Sent: 6/30/2022 3:51:57 AM

Peace and love Rastafari famiy.

i give thankhs for the reasoning and space to reason amongst I and I

theres a whole nother world out here that dont deal w a whole heap a what you are familiar with. and happy to live up so!

we are small scale farmers, along iverything else we busy into, we dont need ai or money or want any of that. Rastafari needa burn dependance on artificial anything.
(just 1 man opinion, no disrespect fo the i them who are ok w ai and such) dependency on tek we knowledge is not a good idea. look at the failed gmo that promised to end world hunger when it emerged in the 1990s and world hunger has increased evey year since, with only negative and unreversable destruction as a result along w huge profits for corporations like bayer and dupont.

capitalism is in its "late stage" and only working well for a few. If your white and defending your success with money, without mentioning and acknowledging white privilege than youve lost your credibility w us.

ujamaa. UJAMAA!
prolly most neva heard a this idea.

from wiki:
"Julius Kambarage Nyerere (Swahili.
13 April 1922 – 14 October 1999) was a Tanzanian anti-colonial activist, politician, and political theorist. He governed Tanganyika as prime minister from 1961 to 1962 and then as president from 1963 to 1964, after which he led its successor state, Tanzania, as president. Ideologically an African nationalist and African socialist, he promoted a political philosophy known as Ujamaa." end quote.

ujamaa doesnt translate directly to english but means something like team work of community. it works for us while still having your isms forced in,unavoidable situations.

i actually barter alot and it works well.
most people need or prefer money and i get that, even i unfortunately at times. balance is a good thing but in general capitalism is not the ideal system. i started a topic about this subject previously if ones wana read more.

our house, car and emergency health care are completely covered in exchange for the work we do. (not iveryone will be so blessed or equipped to find such a circumstance, especially if the i them not living ina good place)

Babylon will grind into your head that only lazy people dont like they isms because they are too lazy to work (slave) or them say socialism equals loss of freedom. classic babylon conditioning of mindset. "they took our jobs and freedom"

i work and help people constantly without expectation of being paid. i love to help and do so for my own satisfaction and also do so just for goodness sake. when you lay down for bed at night and review your days actions in your memory, what good and positive deeds do you have to reflect on from the day? if its not enuf giving and doing for others without expectation than maybe a behavioural change is overdue?

A furthermore american government cannot be respected or even acknowledged untill its majority occupied by so called "native" americans.
(I just say americans, and colonists for the rest non native and their descendants)

Go on and push your bible and money and artificial life, white supremacy and all that and see how far that gets w i.

yall got me

love and more love fam

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 6/30/2022 4:24:50 PM

love and more love.

When I started my organization, BWS2.0, I wanted us to create an independent black economy. It was the dream but I figured if we could make business connections between Africa, South America, the Islands, and the States, we could create a circle in which goods and services could flow and build up an engine that could empower black people with education, business financing, etc.

Unfortunately, we entered into a joint venture with a guy who misrepresented himself and was likely looking to use us to scam other people. I shut it down before that happened but it was still a big bruise that we couldn't fully recover from. So now I talk about these ideas, hoping, idk, maybe someone young and ambitious will want to put some energy into them.

And now I find myself putting those ideas into a book as a better distribution method. I would love to say capitalism is the problem. The reality is that with any system, people will find a way to exploit it. So you have to maintain ethics and allow love to be the foundation. We actually had an UJAMAA event in our city where black owned businesses all got together at a community center. That's kind of where it starts. Marketing. People knowing that you exist. We have to find better ways of doing that. I started a website to do it but I don't have enough manpower anymore to see it all the way through.

Messenger: Evison Matafale Skræling Sent: 7/1/2022 2:23:47 AM

Raspect to the fullest IPX.
even tho we dont agree on every little thing, i can always see where ya coming from and overs the point ya making. And, we do agree in most things anyway.
Seems like endless energy the way you relentlessly try to debate the haters that constantly infiltrate this place.
and your a father and working and holding a good vibe. RASPECT !
If i knew you in real life we would be friends.

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