Use the drop-down boxes above to navigate through the Website  
Return to Reasoning List
 

Here is a link to this page:
http://www.jah-rastafari.com/forum/message-view.asp?message_group=3589&start_row=1


When we love

1 - 1011 - 14
Time Zone: EST (New York, Toronto)
Messenger: Ras KebreAB Sent: 6/21/2009 8:30:42 PM
Reply


"We are never so defenseless against suffering as when we love"

I came across this quote today and i have been thinking about it
It raises some questions in my mind
like, is there truth in this quote
in what sense is "love" mentioned here
what exactly is "suffering"

but while i meditate on it, i wondered if the i them have any thoughts on this........

Bless
Rastafari


Messenger: SunofMan Sent: 6/22/2009 7:46:25 AM
Reply

Who feels it knows it Ras........this one rings very true for I. I don't want to get personal about the subject, but I can't imagine anyOne saying it's not true. "Love" as in: to love someOne....and "suffering" as in: emotional pain.

Who's quote is it? someOne who's felt it no doubt...

Selam


Messenger: SunofMan Sent: 6/22/2009 10:25:17 AM
Reply

We are never so defenseless against suffering as when we love, never so forlornly unhappy as when we have lost our love object or its love.
Freud, Sigmund

Ras KebreAB, I don't know if the I didn't post the rest of the quote for a reason (sorry if I undermined that), but after I looked it up I did think that the latter half shed some light on how One might interpret the quote. However, I don't think the latter half of the quote even begins to encompass the vastness of implications that the first half of the quote contains.

Give Thanks
Selam


Messenger: Ras KebreAB Sent: 6/22/2009 12:44:30 PM
Reply

Blessed I SunofMan, give thanks

Yes i, there was a reason why i did not post the rest of the qoute. There is also a reason why i did not post the author of the quote.
I will explain the reason for the latter first.

When i first heard this quote i had no idea who made it, so i was free to think about it without any kind of bias. Because i know that if i had known from the beginning that it was Freud (read:madman) i wouldnt have even given it another thought. So, i decided to give the i them the same opportunity to think about the quote on its own merits and not be swayed by who made it, knowing that sooner or later whoever was curious would google it and easily find out who made the quote, just as the i did. Just as i did.

Now to explain why i left out the latter half of the quote
The i said,
"I don't think the latter half of the quote even begins to encompass the vastness of implications that the first half of the quote contains."

And that is it right there, thats the reason.
When i heard the quote, i heard it just as i have posted it, i heard it without the latter half of the quote. That is why it made me meditate on the "vastness of implications" of the first half of the quote. Actually, It was not until i came to post it here that i googled it and found the rest of the quote
I felt that the latter half of the quote simplified and limited the scope of the first half.
When you add the second half, it is easy to see what the quote is talking about .
It is basically speaking about "love" in the sense of between a Man and a Woman.
And that is fine, there is a whole reasoning in that in itself.
But i left out that second half of the quote because i didnt want to limit the idea of the quote to just that kind of "love"

lol, but i think that my intention did not work because i see that even the i, SunofMan has limited the idea to just " Love" as in: to love someOne....and "suffering" as in: emotional pain."
As i said, there is a whole reasoning behind that, and i would be happy to reason on that too, yes, we all go through those emotions at some point in our lives.

But you see, if we take the first part of the quote without worrying about who made the quote and without concerning ourselves with the latter half of the quote, then that is a whole other reasoning that comes from it, and that is what interested i in the beginning.

"We are never so defenseless against suffering as when we love"

It got me started thinking all manner of things, like, what exactly is suffering.
Is there such a thing as good suffering and bad suffering?
If there is such a thing as good suffering, then can it be called suffering at all?
Isnt there a difference between the suffering that we avoid as much as we can, and suffering that we gladly accept?
What was Christ speaking of when He asked
"Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able."

Isnt it our "suffering" that makes us know who we are, makes us know that we are seperate from the world of sin?
When i came to post this quote, i happened to read the "Habbakuk" post from Empress Yaa Asantewa, and the first line stopped me
"O LORD, how long shall I cry, and thou wilt not hear! even cry out unto thee of violence, and thou wilt not save!"
Who cries in such a manner, who suffers so, who feels the pain of this world ? Only those who truly Love, no?

so the i see, these are some of the meditations


Messenger: Ten Sent: 6/22/2009 6:14:06 PM
Reply

Greetings

I've seen this in its fullness and knowing that it was Freud who said it adds all kinds of connotations to it. But when its broken up, it reads differently. Well I think there is a good kind of suffering and there is bad; it depends on intent and purpose of suffering and by whom it is inflicted and upon whom. A fast for example is a kind of suffering which is good because it's sacrifice to the Most High for the purposes of establishing discipline for the body and mind and also meditating with the Most High. Another good kind of suffering I guess could be like in times of revolution, when the Ethiopia faced invasion and for love of Country and loyalty to HIM resisted Italian occupation.

In ref to the quote on baptism in Matt when Christ asks his disciples if they are able: it could signify a number of things. What stands out for I is whether the disciples can walk the path that Christ walks because to drink of His cup is to take on His burdens and in the way that Christ suffered, they must be prepared to suffer too. But also in His anointing that comes from it, they too shall be anointed and recieve a divine blessing although Christ says who sits on the left hand of the Father shall be chosen by the Almighty.

Those are I thoughts for now but I hope to reason more on this more fully tomorrow when I have a li'l mo' time.

Blessed Love


Messenger: Ras KebreAB Sent: 6/22/2009 6:59:59 PM
Reply


Blessed Love

Sistren Ten, considering what you have written, i have to disagree with one point

The i said
" A fast for example is a kind of suffering which is good because it's sacrifice to the Most High for the purposes of establishing discipline for the body and mind and also meditating with the Most High."

I disgree with that
A fast should never be a suffering. It all depends on to what extent you fast.
If you fast to the point where you are actually suffering, then you are doing something wrong.

As long as ini are doing right, as long as ini are in the R way, ini will gladly accept the suffering that the world inflicts upon us, for ini know greater things await ini.
But ini will never inflict any suffering upon ourselves.
Moreover, that is not what Jah wants from ini
Jah wants ini to praise HIM with joy and happiness

If we fast to the point where we are suffering, then we are no different from the demonic thing i see among catholics where they will whip themselves and all manner of things just to inflict pain upon themselves, as if Jah would ask that of anyone, fire

If we fast in order to meditate upon the Most High, then it dont make no sense to fast to the point of sufferation because it will just end up disturbing our meditation.

Like sex, it is well and good to abstain from sex for a time in order to concentrate on your meditation. But if we abstain from this natural act to the point where the body begins to suffer, then we have already defeated the very purpose of abstaining in the first place


Messenger: Ten Sent: 6/22/2009 7:52:19 PM
Reply

Seen I, blessed. I guess the word should be endurance rather than suffering when I refered to both fasting and revolution because as the I say anything we do in the name of the Most High is never suffering. It can only be endurance and there can be no such thing as good suffering in the work of the Most High - no?


Messenger: Ras KebreAB Sent: 6/22/2009 8:47:32 PM
Reply


We in Ethiopia have the longest fast days in any Christian country, more than half the year is spent in fasting
But this does not mean that the people abstain from food totally.
Fast in Ethiopia means totally abstaining from meat and dairy products.

So, according to Ithiopian trodition, ini as Rastafari, are basically on a constant and lifelong fast.
But we dont suffer, if anything, we live better,healthy, fruits and vegetables on the table

Give thanks for life
Rastafari


Messenger: Ark I Sent: 6/22/2009 11:56:19 PM
Reply

I will Reason about the subject of the Reasoning. I will just first make a comment about fasting.

Another Itation of fasting is to Learn to control your body, so that the I can resist the hunger for food. About suffering, I guess it depends on how a person would view suffering. When I and I completely fast, with just the amount of water needed to survive, not using water to help with hunger, or for a short time without even water, depending on the strength of One; the hunger pains that come and go could be considered a suffering in a way. But what I and I must never do in a fast is to deal with the vibes of suffering. Feel the pain, but don't bring suffering into your Irits because of pain, instead, challenge it and defeat it. It even says in the scriptures that I and I should never put on a sorrow face when fasting, to advertise that we are doing so, but instead to trod strong and not let anybody know that I and I is fasting.

The good thing about occasionally fasting in this manner, is that when I and I Learn to control our temptation of hunger, it is another step in Learning to control other temptations triggered by the reaction of our physical system to its surroundings.

---------------
"We are never so defenseless against suffering as when we love"
---------------

If I take the quote as is, without the rest of it. If there is Pure Love, than Selassie I is I and I shield and buckler, and I and I will not suffer, unless I and I choose to suffer to deal with a certain task. But two things makes that statement very true, one is because I and I all have Love to different degrees, but there is almost none that have Pure Love, as the Most High Selassie I Loves in Purity. The second thing is that we are in a world where there is too little Love in general. So I and I suffer because I and I are in surroundings that bring sufferation, and because I and I don't have enough Love yet to overcome that. And what makes it even worse, in a surroundings like this, the people with more Love end up suffering more, because those with low love come and take and abuse, but don't give, and many others who also give Love, don't look at the Ones giving Love as those that need Love. Love often makes a person suffer in silence, because they Love their brother or sister too much to burden them with their suffering. After all, I and I are to bear the burden of I and I brothers and sisters.

Don't put too much concentration in suffering. Feel it and Trod through, correct things if things need to be corrected, but Trod through with I and I I-centration on the Joy that comes. Because the Joy in Life is Strength, and too often people don't notice the Joy pass Right in front of them because their concentration is on the negative. So instead of grabbing the Joy to gather strength, the Joy trods through until someOne else gathers it.

One thing I knew to be true when I first started I trod, is that there would be a period of suffering and problems, and I didn't know how long that period would be. I accepted the Trod set for I and accepted the cleansing that would come through sufferation. Some will suffer physically, some emotionally, some financially, and many other forms, and it is usually a mixture of some of the different forms.

I and I must Sight that I and I live in a world of people that are far from the Creator, and refused to accept I and I role in Creation, the role that was set in place from the beginning.

So when I and I come out of that, I and I must purge and blaze out all the wickedness within. And in that process of cleansing, sufferation comes because there is a lot to clean. Filth that has piled up for more generations then people can count, must be removed, so that all that is left is Fire.

With that Love, that Fire that will burn within, I and I will be able to smile and have Joy, even when I and I are at the lowest of lows. I and I will even sometimes feel Joy at the very same moment I and I are feeling pain. As I and I clean from the beginning, the suffering will become worse for a time, and then after the lowest point, the suffering will start to fade until it is finally defeated. I and I just must make sure that I and I don't be blind to any goodness or Joy that passes by, and to build in Strength, and build in Purity, and resist going back.

Remember that everytime a person goes back, they will have to repeat the period of sufferation that they already passed through, only the form of it might change.

Forward Iver, backward never.





Messenger: SunofMan Sent: 6/23/2009 10:41:59 AM
Reply

good reasonings!

When I first read the quote I immediately applied it to I Self and that immediately brought up feelings I had about love in the "love someONe" sense, but after reading the rest of the quote I knew that One didn't have to lose their "love object" or its reciprocal love to feel emotional pain. A lot of people still love each other and haven't lost each other, yet have the propensity to cause "suffering" in the sense of emotional pain. I've always thought of this as something to learn from and get stronger from, and it is critical that this be turned into something from which One can build upon and no longer suffer from it.

In that sense suffering is a stepping stone to a higher path, should Ones choose to use it in the right way.

I knew that suffering could also be applied to a lot of other things that's why I referred to its implications as vast. But man...to feel the pains of love for a woman....lol.....sometimes I and I keep putting a hand in the fire and leaving it their too long (and then do it again and again) before we learn the lesson.

In terms of fasting, I've got to say, I've always seen it as a blessing. In the Ethiopian fasts abstention from animal products is easy, I never had a problem going without dairy for a while, and what a wonderful time in Ethiopia when there are vegan meals ready at every house and restaurant. A lot of Ethiopians have asked me "so...you are like always fasting?" pretty much, and as I said its a joy. But there are certainly fasts that go way beyond that. Abstention from food altogether, can be hard at first, but eventually hunger pains go away, deep meditation can come much more easily when One has overcome the fluctuation in appetite. The Ethiopian saint Gebre Manfes Kiddus was said to live on One piece of kollo a year, or maybe that was Tekle Haymanot. Currently there are some Indian yogis who are known to abstain from food and water for bizarre amounts of time, and then there's the Buddha Boy of Nepal, who was filmed for months without taking any food or water, they've said they are absorbing sun light. I never heard of any of these mystics saying that they suffered through it though, these were choices they made towards their own physical liberation and in effort to become closer to the Oneness with the Most High.

Ras Kebre AB I was curious about the comment the I made in regards to the Catholics and the Self flagellation. I'm sure there is an emphasis there on suffering and enduring pain, but what does the I think of this practice in Ethiopia? I have read and can provide more information (if yer interested) on Ethiopian Saints who practiced not only flagellation but other extremely arduous acts of asceticism. I'm unsure if this was in effort to suffer, or perhaps it is to escape suffering, or rather to conquer it, and certainly these acts are done out of an intense love of Igziabier.


Selam


1 - 1011 - 14

Return to Reasoning List




RastafarI
 
Haile Selassie I